WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from June 12, 2023

Listener comments!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtonkies!
	🤖 6:01pm Handy Haversack: Hey, Mark, ultradamno, everyone. Is it OK to take your dog's codeine pills? Asking for a friend.
	🤖 6:01pm Bas NL: Mark! Tech addicts!(?)
	6:01pm ultradamno: Hiya Handy!
	🤖 6:01pm tim: Hi Mark! Hi everyone! Great topic tonight!
	🤖 6:02pm tim: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:01 As long as you share, Handy.
	6:02pm Ike: Long ago, maybe in the early 00s (?), a certain station manager occasionally joked (?) about taking dog medication.
	6:03pm StringOFperils: I am definitely addicted to the wheel and to fire.
	🤖 6:04pm Wendy del Formaggio: Hello Mark and friends!
	🤖 6:05pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:01 Handy, I couldn't follow the story while I was on the air, but what's up with Bagpipe? And yes, what tim said about sharing the codeine.
	6:05pm hoeg: how about both together StringOfPerils :D
	6:06pm Ike: Hi Mark: on the previous playlists, someone said ChatGPT was great for suggesting questions about something technical (depyrogenation tunnels?) and I suggested it probably just got that all from Reddit posts. If there's no misinformation about that for it to trawl, it'll be right. Garbage in, garbage out! As Orthofrancis then correctly pointed out, "...[for] a lawyer who wrote up a case defense... GPT made up several non-existent cases as a citation." Well, law is probably less specialized than depyrogenation (whatever that is) and probably has more misinformation for it to feed from.
	6:07pm StringOFperils: ↳ hoeg @6:05 Sure!! www.pinterest.ca...
	6:07pm chris in the redwoods: hi, Mark! hi, everyone!
	6:08pm Jackie G: ↳ Ike @6:06 Ever wonder if any commenters on the WFMU comments board are ChatGBTs? I do
	🤖 6:08pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:05 Wendy, he had a massive tumor on his spleen, we found out Friday. Saturday he had an emergency splenectomy. We just brought him home from the hospital. It has been A LOT.
	6:09pm ?: not the worst thing that can happen to someone
	6:09pm mr 6: All yes all 12 step programs are based on the AA 12 step program.Major differences being AA has 12 principles that have and keep AA successful and free from any public/commercial/government interference
	🤖 6:09pm chresti: Hi Mark and techtonicians! I'm a WFMU addict!
	6:09pm chris in the redwoods: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:08 all my love and positive healing vibes to Bagpipe, that sweet soul. <3
	6:10pm StringOFperils: Aww, poor dog.
	6:10pm Ike: ↳ Jackie G @6:08 Just that one guy. But only him.
	6:11pm Mark Hurst: Hi all, thanks for joining! @Handy, hope his recovery is swift.
	🤖 6:11pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:11 Thanks, Mark, Chris, everyone.
	6:11pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:04 Hi Wendy, thanks for joining so soon after your own show! (Wreck Your Own Adventure, on the Drummer stream - wfmu.org... )
	🤖 6:12pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:08 Oh, Handy. I'm so sorry. Hugs to you, K8, and Bagpipe. <3
	6:12pm ultradamno: filtermag.org...
	🤖 6:12pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hello, Mark and food planes. Bottom and one side and then rotate 45° for a hotdog bun. 🌭
	🤖 6:13pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:11 I'm glad to be here, and it's an easy and helpful transition from "being a DJ" to "not." And thanks for the link/plug, Mark!
	🤖 6:13pm Handy Haversack: One similarity between internet/tech addiction and AA that leaps immediately to mind is how socially accepted both are -- that it's almost considered aberrant to suggest that there COULD be a problem. And how those who don't partake are considered Other, outsider, by standard societal norms, at least here in crapitalist Western society. I mean, I drink. But I can see the issues here.
	🤖 6:14pm MarciB: Hello Mark + all! I think I'm addicted to WFMU (ask my husband). Is that so bad? Now, I do listen to a few other stations like BGO, KCR, FDU sometimes ;)
	6:14pm mr 6: Wow This group is actually using the “AA” to promote their group and anything they do to promote themselves will be successful due to that. I seriously hope that the AA intergroup can put a stop to them using the “AA”
	🤖 6:15pm Ken From Hyde Park: You mean AA is not a support group for batteries?
	6:16pm chris in the redwoods: wrong therapist, then?
	6:16pm Mark Hurst: ↳ mr 6 @6:14 Please check the site. "The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous have been adapted with the permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (“A.A.W.S.”)" internetaddictsanonymous.org...
	🤖 6:16pm Wendy del Formaggio: I think it's helpful to remember the difference between "thing you really like doing and do a lot" and "thing you can't stop doing without physical or psychic pain and it's interfering with your functioning."
	6:17pm SM Ken: Hi everybody! Mr 6, I also wonder/worry about the AA association. AA is practically a religious organization, which repels me.
	6:19pm Juli: This makes a lot of sense to me. I am addicted because of trauma::: & Stability This is important.
	🤖 6:21pm MarciB: Why would a therapist pooh-pooh Jay's issue? Online addiction for other topics is real - why not the internet itself?
	6:22pm chris in the redwoods: with love and respect, i would encourage everyone with trauma to address the trauma in a therapeutic setting that works for them, and not stop at addressing one's symptoms of trauma, such as addiction.
	6:23pm Juli: I still blame Capitalism For all of this If Basic Income were real we would be more stable:::personally as a society!
	6:23pm mr 6: SM Ken I’m clean and sober 37 years without any religious affiliation. The God references I AA are to each his/her own. It’s the cAA conscious of Good Orderly Direction Hence the group As a whole has more power then me by myself
	6:23pm Juli: ↳ chris in the redwoods @6:22 I believe in & love therapy:: I learn a lot & I have stopped using the internet::::slowly
	🤖 6:24pm Handy Haversack: ↳ chris in the redwoods @6:22 While admittedly a lot of my understanding of it comes from Infinite Jest, I think that the thing about AA is that it's emergency triage -- it's AA or death. Once you're not in danger of immediate death, then, yes, find a way to delve deeper -- but that's sound advice for most of us.
	6:24pm Juli: ↳ mr 6 @6:23 AA does wonders for many::::} Community:::}
	6:25pm dday: Just a theory here about certain therapists not taking things seriously... perhaps they know they won't get paid through any insurer for their services because IA isn't listed in the recognized diagnostic condition codes ? The health care billing system (note I don't recognize our system as a health care system) we live seems to be based more on how much can a provider bill, than dealing with patients (now called consumers or customers) problems. Not all providers are guilty of this, but since so many are owned by large health management corporations, many docs are hamstrung if they wish to practice in their chosen field. First question when setting up an appt. with any provider is "what's your insurance co.?" Again...just a theory
	6:25pm ?: made much more difficult by the pandemic
	6:25pm Ike: A lot of this sounds, uh, maybe a little too familiar.
	6:25pm Snortley: SM Ken: There are more secular alternatives to AA type groups, such as the organization Smart Recovery.
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: ↳ @6:25 Yes - this was a question I meant to ask but didn't get around to - about how the pandemic affected Jay and others, in terms of their internet usage.
	6:26pm joe mulligan: unfort it seems rock bottom is what it takes for people/humans to make a change in most cases
	🤖 6:26pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ chris in the redwoods @6:22 What Chris said. With scant few exceptions, addiction follows trauma. If therapy is your thing, seek a therapist who specializes in trauma. I know this from experience. Love to you all. <3
	🤖 6:26pm tim: I went to AA for 18 months-years. It helped. Trust me in that I had no desire to end up there. I’m a stone heathen. I’m also pretty uncomfortable being a joiner in groups. I lived somewhere where there were different types of meetings. Some pretty mellow and some hardcore. I never felt like I was in a cult situation. In regard to the higher power I was honest that I wasn’t a believer but I acknowledged my drinking was bigger than me and fucked me up. I stopped going to meetings when I stopped hearing anything new. Also, I am a-ok with the AA model being used to help other issues.
	6:26pm ?: this is dissociation
	6:26pm StringOFperils: Psychic and physical pain can seem to be alleviated by cozying up to the internet, and thus appear to be a compulsive need originating there, but it may be that it's actually a comforting distraction from aforesaid pain. The root psychological problem(s) might not be coming from constant net usage. The therapist would probably be seeking a truer source of a life problem, not a thing that masks it, be it the internet, or self-medicating etc
	6:27pm Rich in Washington: Fun fact: The guy who founded Rational Recovery was a KBOO DJ.
	6:27pm Jackie G: Taking a walk in the woods. Connecting to the Earth (not the internet) helps cure all ills. Try hiking the AP. The Earth heals, it's a fact.
	6:27pm chris in the redwoods: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:24 agreed!
	6:28pm Chris from Brooklyn: My name is Chris and I’m a device a holic. This AA theme is likely as Matt Taibbi to get a rise outta some. Nyuck. AA does work. For some. No regrets. But as some atheist types go anti zealot it’s only natural for anti 12ers to feel equally perturbed. But I don’t kid myself. Once I got my hands on the iPod touch my world was never the same. Oh. The internet. But no desk to get sucked into it. Ok. Oh my. I live w a full blown input junkie The struggle is real. Now to catch up On the expected sturm und drang
	🤖 6:28pm Will thee Sound Guy: Hi Mark Hurst and all!!!
	6:28pm Chris from Brooklyn: But touching grass. Much better
	6:29pm Juli: ↳ Chris from Brooklyn @6:28 Agreed.
	6:29pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Will thee Sound Guy @6:28 Hi Will, thanks for joining!
	6:29pm chris in the redwoods: ↳ Song: "Interview with Jay D." i sure wish her story wasn't relatable! best wishes! any therapist who denies her story describes an addiction can meet me behind the gym after school, goddamnit.
	6:29pm mr 6: Tim I’m fine with the AA model being used for any recovery group/self I’m not ok with them using the “AA” in their name. NA which walks side by side with us in recovery (a drug is a drug is a drink) never used the “AA” in their name
	🤖 6:30pm Wendy del Formaggio: I didn't invent this phrase, but it's true: The opposite of addiction isn't sobriety; connection is the opposite of addiction. For some, 12-step programs provide this. For others, it's a different mode of fellowship. And, what Juli said bears some truth: C(r)apitalism causes real harm. By design, it alienates us from others and from ourselves. Maybe joining DSA can help! I say that in all seriousness.
	6:31pm dday: Everyone is different so if something, anything helps you get your life back on track from any addiction, then it's a good thing for you and probably those around you.
	🤖 6:32pm MarciB: I hoped with all the "quit lit" books out that there'd be one that helps folks with interest addiction. I wonder if "How To Break Up with your Phone" would qualify...as would the work of Cal Newport...
	6:32pm ultradamno: The worst thing about AA is the chair circle in a gym scene has become a TV/movie cliche because every screenwriter goes to meetings to network.
	🤖 6:33pm DjLorraine: shinrin yoku forest bathing
	6:33pm Mark Hurst: ↳ MarciB @6:32 That's a good one. Catherine Price, author, "How to Break Up With Your Phone" - from the April 16, 2018 Techtonic: www.wfmu.org...
	6:34pm Juli: ↳ ultradamno @6:32 My Ex went thru videos sometimes and loves it:::you can go w ppl from all over the country etc::: The whole God thing is strange should be changed to higher purpose or higher power but I suppose some don't believe it.
	🤖 6:34pm tim: ↳ mr 6 @6:29 Sure, I see the difference. Sorry I didn’t catch that earlier.
	6:35pm Marie in Queens: Thanks, Mark. Really great that you are airing this topic and a potential solution
	🤖 6:35pm MarciB: I wonder of Alan Carr has addressed this topic - he seems to have covered everything else!
	6:35pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Marie in Queens @6:35 Thanks, Marie
	6:35pm joe mulligan: there's the saying “The darkest hour of the night comes just before the dawn” and also change happens after rock bottom, but both of those aren't exact - it can be different for everyone.
	6:36pm Juli: I do worksheets w therapy about automatic thoughts etc Its amazing I adore learning mind behavior.
	6:36pm ultradamno: Alternatives to 12 step programs addictionresource.com...
	6:37pm joe mulligan: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:30 sounds good to me Wendy!
	6:37pm Juli: ↳ ultradamno @6:36 Ty ::::}
	🤖 6:37pm chresti: ↳ DjLorraine @6:33 That sounds interesting
	6:37pm Chris from Brooklyn: ↳ Juli @6:29 Solidarity Juli Looks like most are cool so alls good. I know the program makes waves The great thing about the rooms was the company. Lonesome no more as Vonnegut explained was what brought most inside. Imagine. People. In person. It has its upsides. Anyone else read Street Corner Society in school? Bowling. Coffee ands. All the social glue that was already dissipating forty years ago.
	6:39pm Mark Hurst: See also the Feb 3. 2020 show with David Courtwright, author, "The Age of Addiction: How Bad Habits Became Big Business" - www.wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:40pm tim: Not judging tech is also something borrowed from AA. In AA, it’s not judging those who drink.
	6:41pm Juli: This is important for many to hear.
	6:41pm dday: Another thing to consider and I'd hope research is underway on this, is, what are the chemical changes that take place when one is actively IA. Addiction to anything is multi-pronged, physical, mental,emotional & more. I'd be curious to see what chemical changes take place in someone.
	🤖 6:43pm Handy Haversack: ↳ tim @6:40 And I think that it's worth noting that both groups are (subtextually) combating industries that use human frailty and misery as an economic driver. I mean, hate the game not the player, right? I can appreciate drinking while knowing that the companies that make alcohol WANT me to be miserable enough to need to drink more to survive. I think the absolute commitment of Big Tech to using proven addictive strategies is even more clear -- and more directly taken from Big Tobacco than alcohol. But the point being that the supposedly neutral market that provides these "services" is hardcore invested in using the the methodology of addiction for profit. Or, sure, what Mark just said.
	🤖 6:43pm MarciB: It would be great for Mark to do this sort of show a few times a year, and we can learn what progress is being made on this serious problem. Thank you for bringing this up, Mark!
	🤖 6:44pm Handy Haversack: And again, that social judgment, social norms, come down AGAINST those who forswear the addictive substance. I mean, I judge people who don't drink -- I try not to, but it happens. And to say that you don't use social media or smartphones? I mean, people HATE me for that. And for other reasons, sure.
	6:45pm moparlarry: How does someone recover from an internet- tech addiction if your job requires you to use it?
	🤖 6:45pm Wendy del Formaggio: Thank you, Mark and Jay. This was a great interview.
	6:46pm Juli: ↳ moparlarry @6:45 I suppose you lessen your screen time or your time consuming media::
	6:46pm Juli: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:44 Why du yu judge ppl who don't drink lol
	6:46pm dday: ↳ moparlarry @6:45 That's a tough one for sure. Kinda have to maybe learn to hate your job...just kidding. That is a conundrum
	🤖 6:47pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ moparlarry @6:45 @moparlarry: I wonder about that, too. The same as I wonder about folks who are in Overeaters Anonymous. How do people find a way to do something crucial for survival (eating, working under Capitalism) in a functional, non-harmful way?
	6:47pm joe mulligan: Hugs to all, the WFMU listeners are the best!
	🤖 6:47pm tim: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:43 Agreed. I think Aa and other twelve steps are about loving the individual but there’s no problem about judging the cause.
	🤖 6:47pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Juli @6:46 Yeah, I don't know -- I think it's a reflexive way of justifying my own substance use, you know? I think that same psychology is in play when people get mad that I don't use social media.
	6:48pm Juli: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:47 Hmmmmmm::yes psychologically it is very intriguing to figure out:::
	🤖 6:48pm chresti: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:01 Many years ago, someone paid me for a painting with codeine pills.
	6:49pm Arthur: I'm on the computer and phone all the time for work and then it just slips away into time wasting :( its hard to disentangle technology from your life without walking away from it all and going off to live radically
	🤖 6:49pm tim: ↳ Juli @6:48 Some of my best friends (like Handy) are drinkers ;)
	6:49pm Juli: The brain is a beautifully strong yet fragile imagination machine:::: j unbelievably complex!
	🤖 6:50pm Handy Haversack: ↳ tim @6:49 It's one of my very few skills!
	🤖 6:50pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:47 I think you're onto something, Handy. When I tell people I don't use social media, most people try to defend their use of it with hesitation, shame, and defensiveness. I try to be gentle and remind them why I don't use social media, and that they need to do what works for them. AA et al says, "Attraction rather than promotion," and I think that's a good policy. Shame is harmful.
	6:51pm Juli: ↳ tim @6:49 I don't judge ppl who drink::: Unless you need to stop to save yr life ya know still I am anti judging all about j speaking ze truths we may needs
	6:51pm ?: You’re missing food lol fast food. Processed foods. Sugar. Dairy. Etc…
	6:51pm dday: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:47 substance use vs. substance abuse. Not everyone who drinks alcohol, will become addicted so I always think of it as "don't hate alcohol (the substance, which has many very good uses isopropyl etc.) hate what it does to you if it's use gets out of control.
	6:52pm ?: as soon as people started walking straight into mall fountains, you could see this was going bad
	6:53pm joe mulligan: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:50 I have a bit of a sugar addiction and some people were bashing me who were drinking heavily/most probably are addicted. i told them it's no worse/just as bad as their drinking and they refused/got very defensive.
	6:53pm ?: The economy of the american diet is just as much based off of addiction and is actively killing us. Just as much of a concern as technology
	6:53pm Ike: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:47 Well, when I've met you IRL, I've never felt judged by you for my water-guzzling!
	🤖 6:53pm tim: Working 70-80 hours a week sounds like an addiction.
	🤖 6:54pm chresti: ↳ @6:51 Sugar is the gateway to all addiction
	6:54pm coelacanth∅: ↳ @6:53 true
	6:54pm dark web santa: I look forward to doing drugs
	🤖 6:54pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Ike @6:53 Ha, no, of course not! Though if this drought keeps going ...
	6:54pm dday: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:50 I've had some actually chastise me with "well, if you were on Fb you'd know what's going on." No social media except here, no cell phone or device since I retired in 2010.
	6:55pm dday: Perhaps they are addicted to money, Mark
	6:55pm ultradamno: ↳ chresti @6:54 Look at hummingbirds, little junkies. And they see colors we don't...
	6:55pm chris in the redwoods: cuz $$$M, Mark. i wish it weren't so.
	🤖 6:56pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Mark. And thanks for sharing, Jay. Crucial stuff. Later on, Technopals.
	6:56pm Juli: Ty so much Mark!!! Ty so much Everyone:::}
	6:56pm StringOFperils: Violence seems like the gateway to all addiction. Some kind of rationalization that can never address that which can't be dealt with. Something snaps off.
	6:56pm P-90: “Whatever works” is the point here. “12-Step Model pros and cons” and all of these topics are worthy of discussion, but the crucial first stage is simply starting the dialog, bringing the issues out in the open and into the cultural discourse. The solutions to these problems will evolve slowly, parallel with the technology itself. But it begins simply with acknowledging these problems that come with tech. So Thanks @Mark for working the front lines asking these questions and raising awareness.
	🤖 6:56pm tim: Good episode, Mark! Good comments too, commenters!
	6:56pm Chris from Brooklyn: Actually distractions are designed to keep us from rising up and overthrowing our overlords. Well that was fun Mark
	6:56pm joe mulligan: excellent thought provoking episode Mark and everyone on the comments board! love to you all
	6:56pm hoeg: i felt addicted when i realised i wasn't enjoying it but just kept going for the tiniest of intermittent rewards..
	🤖 6:56pm Will thee Sound Guy: Thank you Mark Hurst!!!
	🤖 6:56pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks, Mark. Ol' Grandad would say to always listen to your lower power.
	6:57pm chris in the redwoods: thanks for sharing, Jay D! best wishes! thanks for the show, Mark! thanks for the great space here, peoples of woof moo! <3 <3 <3
	6:57pm Q: Great show, thx Mark!
	🤖 6:57pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ dday @6:54 dday: Yuck! I do judge anyone who would say that. When I stopped using facebook, I ended up missing out on some events, but not for long.
	🤖 6:57pm MarciB: ↳ chresti @6:54 that's a fact! or as the kids say - Facts!
	🤖 6:57pm chresti: ↳ ultradamno @6:55 Right? Ha!
	6:58pm dark web santa: Mark, how are your criticisms of the tech industry simply criticisms of a certain sector of a capitalist economy?
	6:58pm dday: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:57 I just chuckle & say "if that's what's going on, I'd rather not know" :)
	🤖 6:58pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Chris from Brooklyn @6:56 Your first sentence: yes!
	6:58pm Erik/VermonT: Slightly disagree … I think WFMU can indeed become addictive ! Via all the media devices ! Again, if it interrupts your overall health & well being - that’s potentially addiction adjacent … just sayin.
	6:58pm TonyR: You ain't seen nothing until you've seen a Summer without Spazz.
	🤖 6:58pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ dday @6:58 Haha, exactly, dday!
	6:58pm dday: What about prog...prog ...prog :)
	🤖 6:59pm chresti: Thanks Mark!
	6:59pm Jackie G: Some commenters are addicted to commenting.
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: ↳ Erik/VermonT @6:58 of course it can. any denial of that is a double-standard cop-out!
	🤖 6:59pm Wendy del Formaggio: Thank you, Mark! And for the plugs. :-)
	🤖 7:00pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark! Thanks Jay!
	7:00pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, all, good comments this evening!
	7:00pm Danny in Poughkeepsie: Thanks Mark
	7:00pm listener 126464: enter the discount code!
	7:00pm ultradamno: Why do you think they call it dope?

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from June 12, 2023

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

Also available as an MP3 podcast. More info at our Podcast Central page.

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Upcoming events:

Mon. Dec 23rd, 6pm - 7pm: Don Fleming guest hosts Techtonic

June 12, 2023: Internet addiction and the ITAA: Internet and Technology Addicts Anonymous

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Today: Internet addiction and the ITAA: Internet and Technology Addicts Anonymous

• internetaddictsanonymous.org, website for the ITAA (Internet and Technology Addicts Anonymous)

• Recovery stories, including Tomas’s own (audio file, hosted on Google) The Degenerate World.

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PAST EPISODES: techtonic.fm lists recent Techtonic shows.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist	Track	Approx. start time
Internet addiction and the ITAA: Internet and Technology Addicts Anonymous
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"
	Mark's intro "Mark's intro"
	Interview with Jay D. "Interview with Jay D."	0:06:05 (MP3 \| Pop-up)
	Mark's comments "Mark's comments"	0:41:31 (MP3 \| Pop-up)
Decisive Pink	Dopamine "Dopamine" by "Decisive Pink"	0:54:31 (MP3 \| Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Techtonkies!
	🤖 6:01pm Handy Haversack: Hey, Mark, ultradamno, everyone. Is it OK to take your dog's codeine pills? Asking for a friend.
	🤖 6:01pm Bas NL: Mark! Tech addicts!(?)
	6:01pm ultradamno: Hiya Handy!
	🤖 6:01pm tim: Hi Mark! Hi everyone! Great topic tonight!
	🤖 6:02pm tim: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:01 As long as you share, Handy.
	6:02pm Ike: Long ago, maybe in the early 00s (?), a certain station manager occasionally joked (?) about taking dog medication.
	6:03pm StringOFperils: I am definitely addicted to the wheel and to fire.
	🤖 6:04pm Wendy del Formaggio: Hello Mark and friends!
	🤖 6:05pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:01 Handy, I couldn't follow the story while I was on the air, but what's up with Bagpipe? And yes, what tim said about sharing the codeine.
	6:05pm hoeg: how about both together StringOfPerils :D
	6:06pm Ike: Hi Mark: on the previous playlists, someone said ChatGPT was great for suggesting questions about something technical (depyrogenation tunnels?) and I suggested it probably just got that all from Reddit posts. If there's no misinformation about that for it to trawl, it'll be right. Garbage in, garbage out! As Orthofrancis then correctly pointed out, "...[for] a lawyer who wrote up a case defense... GPT made up several non-existent cases as a citation." Well, law is probably less specialized than depyrogenation (whatever that is) and probably has more misinformation for it to feed from.
	6:07pm StringOFperils: ↳ hoeg @6:05 Sure!! www.pinterest.ca...
	6:07pm chris in the redwoods: hi, Mark! hi, everyone!
	6:08pm Jackie G: ↳ Ike @6:06 Ever wonder if any commenters on the WFMU comments board are ChatGBTs? I do
	🤖 6:08pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:05 Wendy, he had a massive tumor on his spleen, we found out Friday. Saturday he had an emergency splenectomy. We just brought him home from the hospital. It has been A LOT.
	6:09pm ?: not the worst thing that can happen to someone
	6:09pm mr 6: All yes all 12 step programs are based on the AA 12 step program.Major differences being AA has 12 principles that have and keep AA successful and free from any public/commercial/government interference
	🤖 6:09pm chresti: Hi Mark and techtonicians! I'm a WFMU addict!
	6:09pm chris in the redwoods: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:08 all my love and positive healing vibes to Bagpipe, that sweet soul. <3
	6:10pm StringOFperils: Aww, poor dog.
	6:10pm Ike: ↳ Jackie G @6:08 Just that one guy. But only him.
	6:11pm Mark Hurst: Hi all, thanks for joining! @Handy, hope his recovery is swift.
	🤖 6:11pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:11 Thanks, Mark, Chris, everyone.
	6:11pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:04 Hi Wendy, thanks for joining so soon after your own show! (Wreck Your Own Adventure, on the Drummer stream - wfmu.org... )
	🤖 6:12pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:08 Oh, Handy. I'm so sorry. Hugs to you, K8, and Bagpipe. <3
	6:12pm ultradamno: filtermag.org...
	🤖 6:12pm Ken From Hyde Park: Hello, Mark and food planes. Bottom and one side and then rotate 45° for a hotdog bun. 🌭
	🤖 6:13pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Mark Hurst @6:11 I'm glad to be here, and it's an easy and helpful transition from "being a DJ" to "not." And thanks for the link/plug, Mark!
	🤖 6:13pm Handy Haversack: One similarity between internet/tech addiction and AA that leaps immediately to mind is how socially accepted both are -- that it's almost considered aberrant to suggest that there COULD be a problem. And how those who don't partake are considered Other, outsider, by standard societal norms, at least here in crapitalist Western society. I mean, I drink. But I can see the issues here.
	🤖 6:14pm MarciB: Hello Mark + all! I think I'm addicted to WFMU (ask my husband). Is that so bad? Now, I do listen to a few other stations like BGO, KCR, FDU sometimes ;)
	6:14pm mr 6: Wow This group is actually using the “AA” to promote their group and anything they do to promote themselves will be successful due to that. I seriously hope that the AA intergroup can put a stop to them using the “AA”
	🤖 6:15pm Ken From Hyde Park: You mean AA is not a support group for batteries?
	6:16pm chris in the redwoods: wrong therapist, then?
	6:16pm Mark Hurst: ↳ mr 6 @6:14 Please check the site. "The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous have been adapted with the permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (“A.A.W.S.”)" internetaddictsanonymous.org...
	🤖 6:16pm Wendy del Formaggio: I think it's helpful to remember the difference between "thing you really like doing and do a lot" and "thing you can't stop doing without physical or psychic pain and it's interfering with your functioning."
	6:17pm SM Ken: Hi everybody! Mr 6, I also wonder/worry about the AA association. AA is practically a religious organization, which repels me.
	6:19pm Juli: This makes a lot of sense to me. I am addicted because of trauma::: & Stability This is important.
	🤖 6:21pm MarciB: Why would a therapist pooh-pooh Jay's issue? Online addiction for other topics is real - why not the internet itself?
	6:22pm chris in the redwoods: with love and respect, i would encourage everyone with trauma to address the trauma in a therapeutic setting that works for them, and not stop at addressing one's symptoms of trauma, such as addiction.
	6:23pm Juli: I still blame Capitalism For all of this If Basic Income were real we would be more stable:::personally as a society!
	6:23pm mr 6: SM Ken I’m clean and sober 37 years without any religious affiliation. The God references I AA are to each his/her own. It’s the cAA conscious of Good Orderly Direction Hence the group As a whole has more power then me by myself
	6:23pm Juli: ↳ chris in the redwoods @6:22 I believe in & love therapy:: I learn a lot & I have stopped using the internet::::slowly
	🤖 6:24pm Handy Haversack: ↳ chris in the redwoods @6:22 While admittedly a lot of my understanding of it comes from Infinite Jest, I think that the thing about AA is that it's emergency triage -- it's AA or death. Once you're not in danger of immediate death, then, yes, find a way to delve deeper -- but that's sound advice for most of us.
	6:24pm Juli: ↳ mr 6 @6:23 AA does wonders for many::::} Community:::}
	6:25pm dday: Just a theory here about certain therapists not taking things seriously... perhaps they know they won't get paid through any insurer for their services because IA isn't listed in the recognized diagnostic condition codes ? The health care billing system (note I don't recognize our system as a health care system) we live seems to be based more on how much can a provider bill, than dealing with patients (now called consumers or customers) problems. Not all providers are guilty of this, but since so many are owned by large health management corporations, many docs are hamstrung if they wish to practice in their chosen field. First question when setting up an appt. with any provider is "what's your insurance co.?" Again...just a theory
	6:25pm ?: made much more difficult by the pandemic
	6:25pm Ike: A lot of this sounds, uh, maybe a little too familiar.
	6:25pm Snortley: SM Ken: There are more secular alternatives to AA type groups, such as the organization Smart Recovery.
	6:25pm Mark Hurst: ↳ @6:25 Yes - this was a question I meant to ask but didn't get around to - about how the pandemic affected Jay and others, in terms of their internet usage.
	6:26pm joe mulligan: unfort it seems rock bottom is what it takes for people/humans to make a change in most cases
	🤖 6:26pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ chris in the redwoods @6:22 What Chris said. With scant few exceptions, addiction follows trauma. If therapy is your thing, seek a therapist who specializes in trauma. I know this from experience. Love to you all. <3
	🤖 6:26pm tim: I went to AA for 18 months-years. It helped. Trust me in that I had no desire to end up there. I’m a stone heathen. I’m also pretty uncomfortable being a joiner in groups. I lived somewhere where there were different types of meetings. Some pretty mellow and some hardcore. I never felt like I was in a cult situation. In regard to the higher power I was honest that I wasn’t a believer but I acknowledged my drinking was bigger than me and fucked me up. I stopped going to meetings when I stopped hearing anything new. Also, I am a-ok with the AA model being used to help other issues.
	6:26pm ?: this is dissociation
	6:26pm StringOFperils: Psychic and physical pain can seem to be alleviated by cozying up to the internet, and thus appear to be a compulsive need originating there, but it may be that it's actually a comforting distraction from aforesaid pain. The root psychological problem(s) might not be coming from constant net usage. The therapist would probably be seeking a truer source of a life problem, not a thing that masks it, be it the internet, or self-medicating etc
	6:27pm Rich in Washington: Fun fact: The guy who founded Rational Recovery was a KBOO DJ.
	6:27pm Jackie G: Taking a walk in the woods. Connecting to the Earth (not the internet) helps cure all ills. Try hiking the AP. The Earth heals, it's a fact.
	6:27pm chris in the redwoods: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:24 agreed!
	6:28pm Chris from Brooklyn: My name is Chris and I’m a device a holic. This AA theme is likely as Matt Taibbi to get a rise outta some. Nyuck. AA does work. For some. No regrets. But as some atheist types go anti zealot it’s only natural for anti 12ers to feel equally perturbed. But I don’t kid myself. Once I got my hands on the iPod touch my world was never the same. Oh. The internet. But no desk to get sucked into it. Ok. Oh my. I live w a full blown input junkie The struggle is real. Now to catch up On the expected sturm und drang
	🤖 6:28pm Will thee Sound Guy: Hi Mark Hurst and all!!!
	6:28pm Chris from Brooklyn: But touching grass. Much better
	6:29pm Juli: ↳ Chris from Brooklyn @6:28 Agreed.
	6:29pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Will thee Sound Guy @6:28 Hi Will, thanks for joining!
	6:29pm chris in the redwoods: ↳ Song: "Interview with Jay D." i sure wish her story wasn't relatable! best wishes! any therapist who denies her story describes an addiction can meet me behind the gym after school, goddamnit.
	6:29pm mr 6: Tim I’m fine with the AA model being used for any recovery group/self I’m not ok with them using the “AA” in their name. NA which walks side by side with us in recovery (a drug is a drug is a drink) never used the “AA” in their name
	🤖 6:30pm Wendy del Formaggio: I didn't invent this phrase, but it's true: The opposite of addiction isn't sobriety; connection is the opposite of addiction. For some, 12-step programs provide this. For others, it's a different mode of fellowship. And, what Juli said bears some truth: C(r)apitalism causes real harm. By design, it alienates us from others and from ourselves. Maybe joining DSA can help! I say that in all seriousness.
	6:31pm dday: Everyone is different so if something, anything helps you get your life back on track from any addiction, then it's a good thing for you and probably those around you.
	🤖 6:32pm MarciB: I hoped with all the "quit lit" books out that there'd be one that helps folks with interest addiction. I wonder if "How To Break Up with your Phone" would qualify...as would the work of Cal Newport...
	6:32pm ultradamno: The worst thing about AA is the chair circle in a gym scene has become a TV/movie cliche because every screenwriter goes to meetings to network.
	🤖 6:33pm DjLorraine: shinrin yoku forest bathing
	6:33pm Mark Hurst: ↳ MarciB @6:32 That's a good one. Catherine Price, author, "How to Break Up With Your Phone" - from the April 16, 2018 Techtonic: www.wfmu.org...
	6:34pm Juli: ↳ ultradamno @6:32 My Ex went thru videos sometimes and loves it:::you can go w ppl from all over the country etc::: The whole God thing is strange should be changed to higher purpose or higher power but I suppose some don't believe it.
	🤖 6:34pm tim: ↳ mr 6 @6:29 Sure, I see the difference. Sorry I didn’t catch that earlier.
	6:35pm Marie in Queens: Thanks, Mark. Really great that you are airing this topic and a potential solution
	🤖 6:35pm MarciB: I wonder of Alan Carr has addressed this topic - he seems to have covered everything else!
	6:35pm Mark Hurst: ↳ Marie in Queens @6:35 Thanks, Marie
	6:35pm joe mulligan: there's the saying “The darkest hour of the night comes just before the dawn” and also change happens after rock bottom, but both of those aren't exact - it can be different for everyone.
	6:36pm Juli: I do worksheets w therapy about automatic thoughts etc Its amazing I adore learning mind behavior.
	6:36pm ultradamno: Alternatives to 12 step programs addictionresource.com...
	6:37pm joe mulligan: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:30 sounds good to me Wendy!
	6:37pm Juli: ↳ ultradamno @6:36 Ty ::::}
	🤖 6:37pm chresti: ↳ DjLorraine @6:33 That sounds interesting
	6:37pm Chris from Brooklyn: ↳ Juli @6:29 Solidarity Juli Looks like most are cool so alls good. I know the program makes waves The great thing about the rooms was the company. Lonesome no more as Vonnegut explained was what brought most inside. Imagine. People. In person. It has its upsides. Anyone else read Street Corner Society in school? Bowling. Coffee ands. All the social glue that was already dissipating forty years ago.
	6:39pm Mark Hurst: See also the Feb 3. 2020 show with David Courtwright, author, "The Age of Addiction: How Bad Habits Became Big Business" - www.wfmu.org...
	🤖 6:40pm tim: Not judging tech is also something borrowed from AA. In AA, it’s not judging those who drink.
	6:41pm Juli: This is important for many to hear.
	6:41pm dday: Another thing to consider and I'd hope research is underway on this, is, what are the chemical changes that take place when one is actively IA. Addiction to anything is multi-pronged, physical, mental,emotional & more. I'd be curious to see what chemical changes take place in someone.
	🤖 6:43pm Handy Haversack: ↳ tim @6:40 And I think that it's worth noting that both groups are (subtextually) combating industries that use human frailty and misery as an economic driver. I mean, hate the game not the player, right? I can appreciate drinking while knowing that the companies that make alcohol WANT me to be miserable enough to need to drink more to survive. I think the absolute commitment of Big Tech to using proven addictive strategies is even more clear -- and more directly taken from Big Tobacco than alcohol. But the point being that the supposedly neutral market that provides these "services" is hardcore invested in using the the methodology of addiction for profit. Or, sure, what Mark just said.
	🤖 6:43pm MarciB: It would be great for Mark to do this sort of show a few times a year, and we can learn what progress is being made on this serious problem. Thank you for bringing this up, Mark!
	🤖 6:44pm Handy Haversack: And again, that social judgment, social norms, come down AGAINST those who forswear the addictive substance. I mean, I judge people who don't drink -- I try not to, but it happens. And to say that you don't use social media or smartphones? I mean, people HATE me for that. And for other reasons, sure.
	6:45pm moparlarry: How does someone recover from an internet- tech addiction if your job requires you to use it?
	🤖 6:45pm Wendy del Formaggio: Thank you, Mark and Jay. This was a great interview.
	6:46pm Juli: ↳ moparlarry @6:45 I suppose you lessen your screen time or your time consuming media::
	6:46pm Juli: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:44 Why du yu judge ppl who don't drink lol
	6:46pm dday: ↳ moparlarry @6:45 That's a tough one for sure. Kinda have to maybe learn to hate your job...just kidding. That is a conundrum
	🤖 6:47pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ moparlarry @6:45 @moparlarry: I wonder about that, too. The same as I wonder about folks who are in Overeaters Anonymous. How do people find a way to do something crucial for survival (eating, working under Capitalism) in a functional, non-harmful way?
	6:47pm joe mulligan: Hugs to all, the WFMU listeners are the best!
	🤖 6:47pm tim: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:43 Agreed. I think Aa and other twelve steps are about loving the individual but there’s no problem about judging the cause.
	🤖 6:47pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Juli @6:46 Yeah, I don't know -- I think it's a reflexive way of justifying my own substance use, you know? I think that same psychology is in play when people get mad that I don't use social media.
	6:48pm Juli: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:47 Hmmmmmm::yes psychologically it is very intriguing to figure out:::
	🤖 6:48pm chresti: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:01 Many years ago, someone paid me for a painting with codeine pills.
	6:49pm Arthur: I'm on the computer and phone all the time for work and then it just slips away into time wasting :( its hard to disentangle technology from your life without walking away from it all and going off to live radically
	🤖 6:49pm tim: ↳ Juli @6:48 Some of my best friends (like Handy) are drinkers ;)
	6:49pm Juli: The brain is a beautifully strong yet fragile imagination machine:::: j unbelievably complex!
	🤖 6:50pm Handy Haversack: ↳ tim @6:49 It's one of my very few skills!
	🤖 6:50pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:47 I think you're onto something, Handy. When I tell people I don't use social media, most people try to defend their use of it with hesitation, shame, and defensiveness. I try to be gentle and remind them why I don't use social media, and that they need to do what works for them. AA et al says, "Attraction rather than promotion," and I think that's a good policy. Shame is harmful.
	6:51pm Juli: ↳ tim @6:49 I don't judge ppl who drink::: Unless you need to stop to save yr life ya know still I am anti judging all about j speaking ze truths we may needs
	6:51pm ?: You’re missing food lol fast food. Processed foods. Sugar. Dairy. Etc…
	6:51pm dday: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:47 substance use vs. substance abuse. Not everyone who drinks alcohol, will become addicted so I always think of it as "don't hate alcohol (the substance, which has many very good uses isopropyl etc.) hate what it does to you if it's use gets out of control.
	6:52pm ?: as soon as people started walking straight into mall fountains, you could see this was going bad
	6:53pm joe mulligan: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:50 I have a bit of a sugar addiction and some people were bashing me who were drinking heavily/most probably are addicted. i told them it's no worse/just as bad as their drinking and they refused/got very defensive.
	6:53pm ?: The economy of the american diet is just as much based off of addiction and is actively killing us. Just as much of a concern as technology
	6:53pm Ike: ↳ Handy Haversack @6:47 Well, when I've met you IRL, I've never felt judged by you for my water-guzzling!
	🤖 6:53pm tim: Working 70-80 hours a week sounds like an addiction.
	🤖 6:54pm chresti: ↳ @6:51 Sugar is the gateway to all addiction
	6:54pm coelacanth∅: ↳ @6:53 true
	6:54pm dark web santa: I look forward to doing drugs
	🤖 6:54pm Handy Haversack: ↳ Ike @6:53 Ha, no, of course not! Though if this drought keeps going ...
	6:54pm dday: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:50 I've had some actually chastise me with "well, if you were on Fb you'd know what's going on." No social media except here, no cell phone or device since I retired in 2010.
	6:55pm dday: Perhaps they are addicted to money, Mark
	6:55pm ultradamno: ↳ chresti @6:54 Look at hummingbirds, little junkies. And they see colors we don't...
	6:55pm chris in the redwoods: cuz $$$M, Mark. i wish it weren't so.
	🤖 6:56pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Mark. And thanks for sharing, Jay. Crucial stuff. Later on, Technopals.
	6:56pm Juli: Ty so much Mark!!! Ty so much Everyone:::}
	6:56pm StringOFperils: Violence seems like the gateway to all addiction. Some kind of rationalization that can never address that which can't be dealt with. Something snaps off.
	6:56pm P-90: “Whatever works” is the point here. “12-Step Model pros and cons” and all of these topics are worthy of discussion, but the crucial first stage is simply starting the dialog, bringing the issues out in the open and into the cultural discourse. The solutions to these problems will evolve slowly, parallel with the technology itself. But it begins simply with acknowledging these problems that come with tech. So Thanks @Mark for working the front lines asking these questions and raising awareness.
	🤖 6:56pm tim: Good episode, Mark! Good comments too, commenters!
	6:56pm Chris from Brooklyn: Actually distractions are designed to keep us from rising up and overthrowing our overlords. Well that was fun Mark
	6:56pm joe mulligan: excellent thought provoking episode Mark and everyone on the comments board! love to you all
	6:56pm hoeg: i felt addicted when i realised i wasn't enjoying it but just kept going for the tiniest of intermittent rewards..
	🤖 6:56pm Will thee Sound Guy: Thank you Mark Hurst!!!
	🤖 6:56pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks, Mark. Ol' Grandad would say to always listen to your lower power.
	6:57pm chris in the redwoods: thanks for sharing, Jay D! best wishes! thanks for the show, Mark! thanks for the great space here, peoples of woof moo! <3 <3 <3
	6:57pm Q: Great show, thx Mark!
	🤖 6:57pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ dday @6:54 dday: Yuck! I do judge anyone who would say that. When I stopped using facebook, I ended up missing out on some events, but not for long.
	🤖 6:57pm MarciB: ↳ chresti @6:54 that's a fact! or as the kids say - Facts!
	🤖 6:57pm chresti: ↳ ultradamno @6:55 Right? Ha!
	6:58pm dark web santa: Mark, how are your criticisms of the tech industry simply criticisms of a certain sector of a capitalist economy?
	6:58pm dday: ↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:57 I just chuckle & say "if that's what's going on, I'd rather not know" :)
	🤖 6:58pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ Chris from Brooklyn @6:56 Your first sentence: yes!
	6:58pm Erik/VermonT: Slightly disagree … I think WFMU can indeed become addictive ! Via all the media devices ! Again, if it interrupts your overall health & well being - that’s potentially addiction adjacent … just sayin.
	6:58pm TonyR: You ain't seen nothing until you've seen a Summer without Spazz.
	🤖 6:58pm Wendy del Formaggio: ↳ dday @6:58 Haha, exactly, dday!
	6:58pm dday: What about prog...prog ...prog :)
	🤖 6:59pm chresti: Thanks Mark!
	6:59pm Jackie G: Some commenters are addicted to commenting.
	6:59pm coelacanth∅: ↳ Erik/VermonT @6:58 of course it can. any denial of that is a double-standard cop-out!
	🤖 6:59pm Wendy del Formaggio: Thank you, Mark! And for the plugs. :-)
	🤖 7:00pm Bas NL: Thanks Mark! Thanks Jay!
	7:00pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, all, good comments this evening!
	7:00pm Danny in Poughkeepsie: Thanks Mark
	7:00pm listener 126464: enter the discount code!
	7:00pm ultradamno: Why do you think they call it dope?

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from June 12, 2023

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