Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from January 15, 2024 Favoriting

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

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Favoriting January 15, 2024: Ben Grosser, artist and creator of Minus, a better social network

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Today: Ben Grosser, creator of Minus, the opposite of Facebook

• Abour our guest: Ben Grosser is an artist focused on the cultural, social, and political effects of software. He’s a professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

bengrosser.com

Redaction of Marc Andreessen’s Techno-Optimist Manifesto (Oct 17, 2023) – see also the PDF file

• Stream my dramatic reading of Ben’s redaction (Nov 6, 2023 Techtonic). Sorry I mispronounced Ben’s last name.

Order of Magnitude (2019): “a massive supercut video of every time Mark Zuckerberg spoke about growth on camera during the first 15 years of Facebook” . . . from “the earliest days of Facebook in 2004 up through Zuckerberg’s compelled appearances before the US Congress in 2018”

How artist Ben Grosser is cutting Mark Zuckerberg down to size (Guardian, Aug 15, 2021) – about Order of Magnitude

Deficit of Less (2021): “I mined those same fifteen years of videos looking for every time he said the word ‘less.’ ... his every public utterance of more’s opposite — from age 19 to age 34 — added up to less than 60 seconds of footage.”

Minus, Ben’s social network that allows 100 posts per user

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Artist Track Images Approx. start time
  Ben Grosser, artist and creator of Minus, a better social network
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Favoriting
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  Mark's intro  
Favoriting
 
  Interview with Ben Grosser  
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0:04:22 (MP3 | Pop-up)
  Mark's comments  
Favoriting
0:44:06 (MP3 | Pop-up)
Mark Hurst  Dramatic reading of Ben Grosser's redaction of Andreessen   Favoriting
Favoriting
0:55:21 (MP3 | Pop-up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar Swag For Life Member 5:58pm
ultradamno:

Mark! Techtonignancies!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
Handy Haversack:

Mark! Techyon Particles!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
David (in London):

Evening Mark and all Technoids.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
chresti:

Hi Mark and techtonicians!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
DanFA:

Growth growth growth.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Handy Haversack:

I know Mark has fixed Private Browsing modes in the Rant Crosshairs before, but I use it make sure that only WFMU pages go in my actual browser history. I like to see how few keystrokes can get me to a show. Typing "te" or "td" gets Techtonic to the top of the list!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Hello Mark and friends! So nice to see you last weekend, Mark.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Song: "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"
Huh, Monte Cook the game designer there in the playlist image.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
Webhamster Henry:

Hi Techtonic! Thanks for interviewing Ben Grosser!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
Will thee Sound Guy:

Hi Mark Hurst and all!!!
  6:05pm
Ben Grosser:

hey everyone
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Hello, Mark and Techtodreamers!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
Wenzo Toad:

howdee-wowdee
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Ben Grosser @6:05
Hey, Ben. Was checking out your site and projects earlier today. Good stuff! Thanks for being here!
  6:07pm
Ben Grosser:

thanks handy!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
Mark Hurst:

Hey Ben, great to see you here! Thanks for joining.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
tim:

Hey Mark! Hi everyone!
  6:09pm
P.Welles:

Hello all rebels!
  6:09pm
P-90:

Always fun to have the interview guest live on the board.
Greetings, Ben
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ Ben Grosser @6:07
The wFMU Chatboards are like one-show-long social media empires!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
Mark Hurst:

ultra, Handy, DiL, chresti, DanFA, Wendy, Webham, WilltSG, KfHP, Wenzo, tim, P.Welles, P-90 - thank you all for being here!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Ben Grosser @6:07
Minus is really wonderful. I love the instant feeling sundowning. Imminent finitude --> immanent finitude. If the whole internet were more like that, we'd be cooking.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:11pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:03
Great seeing you, too, Wendy! Glad you came down to NJ.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
tim:

↳ Ben Grosser @6:05
Hey Ben! I’m happy you’re here. I work at UIUC. I wasn’t’ aware of your work. I am now! I am also pleased as punch to know that there is some around here who is critical of big tech and have a sense of humor! I honestly felt like the boy one in both aspects here - haha!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
PaulRobeson1924:

Hi Hi Hi
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:11
I'm glad I was about to visit, too. I had such a fantastic vacation, even beyond having lotsa fun at the holiday party.
  6:13pm
Ben Grosser:

handy -- yes, "immanent finitude" is it!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
ultradamno:

The Blob was really into growth too
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ Handy Haversack @6:10
What Handy said! Minus might almost make me return to social media.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
tim:

↳ tim @6:12
***only one, not boy on
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
chresti:

Sounds like zuck has growths.
  6:15pm
Marie in Chicago:

A PR company/law firm would definitely not have been so open.
  6:15pm
morphe':

Mark's Couch is not for sale !!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm
ultradamno:

I saw a thread a week or so ago where Elon Musk was trying to find the origin of the 'woke mind virus' (citing 'twitter that was' as an early offender, giving himself a roundabout pat on the back...)
  6:17pm
P-90:

The “Self-Serving Prophecy” industry
  6:17pm
morphe':

I bought my son's sofa cama en Madrid for a lot = I will sell for .. slightly lesss ...
  6:18pm
Marie in Chicago:

or self-serving profity
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:18pm
Webhamster Henry:

Nice supercut!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:19pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Marie in Chicago @6:18
more like self-serving perfidy
  6:20pm
Rolando:

Good morning Friends, I’m sorry I’m late.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:20pm
Handy Haversack:

Self-serving parody?
  6:20pm
Marie in Chicago:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:19
riiiiiiioght, really.

great guest/subject
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:21pm
Webhamster Henry:

You pull in the video, feed to Descript, delete everything be "growth"s, save, repeat!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:22pm
Webhamster Henry:

*but "groths"s...
Avatar 6:22pm
herb.nyc:

The word GROW. I meet some GrowNYC people regularly, now I can’t look at them the same. Damn you, Zuck!
  6:23pm
hendrix wolfbat:

Omg. My guess was 2 minutes.
  6:23pm
Ben Grosser:

thanks henry!
  6:24pm
Ben Grosser:

herb.nyc -- yessssss
  6:26pm
Mike:

I agree that Zuck is evil, but they treat him as anything more than he is? “More” is just ordinary for a CEO. Look elsewhere for help.
  6:27pm
Marie in Chicago:

I guess his audience likes it--Gowth. Positivity. Profit. Success. Young tech dudes and entrepreneurs identify with him?
  6:27pm
P.Welles:

neat concept
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
tim:

Mark and Ben - this interview is a real lifesaver for me. I’ve been really struggling living in the UIUC area. It’s really helpful to know Ben is here too.
Avatar 6:29pm
MarciB:

This is fascinating - like Oliver Burkeman's "10,000 Weeks".
  6:29pm
P-90:

Agreed: as a culture we’re a bit uncomfortable with finity.
  6:30pm
Ben Grosser:

hi tim, nice to see a local on the line!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ tim @6:28
So glad to hear it, Tim! Cool that you're meeting UIUC neighbors on WFMU.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ MarciB @6:29
Good point, Marci
Avatar 6:30pm
herb.nyc:

Haha, 100 posts. I thought of a site that’s the *opposite* of Facebook. Would call it ButtTV. (Get it?). Concept is you’d TAKE data. But couldn’t figure out how it’d work. Help!
  6:30pm
Rolando:

Some good ideas wrapped in this interview, the name minus suggest how we should covet our finite and very limited time - thanks Ben.
  6:31pm
swivs:

They’d just charge you for more posts when you run out… I feel a step in the right direction would be a “hide follower count” option but until we recognize greed as money addiction and treat it as such, I don’t think we’re gonna change anything. Shame greed out of the picture and the other problems will solve themselves. IMO
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm
tim:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:30
Haha! Another reason why FMU is great.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm
ultradamno:

Musk tried to pretend he was intentionally going to limit post rates that one time he broke twitter.
  6:33pm
Ben Grosser:

thanks rolando
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

"99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall," but it's a social media platform.
  6:34pm
jan:

100 posts- art made to point out what we already know but don't don't act upon- we keep returning to the phone and addictively scroll
Avatar 6:34pm
MarciB:

I say the same thing Ben is mentioning about photos - people take way too many- my average client has 100k digital photos. That's their legacy - and who is going to look at all those?
  6:34pm
Marie in Chicago:

Part of why I don't go on social media is the amount of time they take
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
PaulRobeson1924:

Yea, baby. Our time here on Earth is finite…


Do we have an infinite appetite for entertainment? Or do we have to be habituated to think everything should take the form of entertainment (Neil Postman)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:36pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ Ken From Hyde Park @6:34
You just said the secret word! www.99-bottles-of-beer.net
  6:37pm
Ben Grosser:

paul - yess, good quote.
henry -- haha, yes, have been a number of speedruns on the 99 bottles theme :)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
Webhamster Henry:

ECHO has been up for about 33 years and although much diminished, is still running.The interface is very 1991 command liney! echonyc.com
Avatar 6:38pm
Rolando:

David Perell recently questioned what the world would be like if we did NOT favour recency in the search engines. - Why is new away better ? there are some fantastic old books, ideas, thoughts, threads, - lets focus on the best not the most recent. - As Talking Heads say in Psyho Killer - Say something once !!! - Why say it again !!!
  6:38pm
Marie in Chicago:

Hopefully, somewhere down the line we'll look back on this period as the very rough beginnings of online interaction
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm
katie somewhere:

imagining mark nodding vigorously at the invocation of gen x :')
  6:38pm
hendrix wolfbat:

The well…
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

↳ Webhamster Henry @6:36
Haha! Exactly!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
PaulRobeson1924:

↳ PaulRobeson1924 @6:34
Is our appetite for entertainment innate?

I’m always thinking about Neil Postman when here
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
ultradamno:

Musk has said he sees social media as a warzone, that you go into it in order fight and 'win', we know a big part of Zuckerberg has been using the algorithm to increase engagement to increase conflict...it's hard to see creativity when the objective is bickering.
  6:39pm
P.Welles:

↳ PaulRobeson1924 @6:39
me too
  6:39pm
Marie in Chicago:

Amen, Ben!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ Rolando @6:38
Clive Thompson put together a simple weird book search engine that worked off of archive.org's book collection. weird-old-book-finder.glitch.me
Avatar 6:40pm
MarciB:

↳ ultradamno @6:39
yes - isn't their warmongering vocabulary tiring and telling as well?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
PaulRobeson1924:

↳ P.Welles @6:39
Go on…
Avatar 6:40pm
herb.nyc:

↳ MarciB @6:34
I quote this Onion headline often-“internet crashes under weight of baby photos”
Avatar 6:41pm
MarciB:

↳ herb.nyc @6:40
Lol!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm
Mark Hurst:

Ben - I should have asked you about the interesting coincidence that Andreessen started out at UIUC with Mosaic, and now you're doing your work at UIUC.
  6:42pm
P.Welles:

information glut
  6:42pm
Ben Grosser:

mark -- yes, i have my lab at NCSA, where his was! there's a plaque outside the building door about it being the birthplace of the graphical web browser!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ Ben Grosser @6:42
I used the original WWW browser on NeXT .. and and still a fan of lynx!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
PaulRobeson1924:

I don’t get art!
  6:43pm
Marie in Chicago:

Ben, you are doing important things for society, thank you! (You too Mark!)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Ben Grosser @6:42
Ben, I hope they put up a plaque someday about YOUR work.
  6:44pm
Ben Grosser:

oh yes, enjoyed the NeXT and still load lynx myself :)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:45pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ Ben Grosser @6:44
I see Minus has ASCII art, so I should log in and post my ASCII-ART comic "Out Of Character"
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
chresti:

a stain on the floor
  6:46pm
Ben Grosser:

henry -- yes, there's been some great ascii art there. please contribute!
Avatar 6:46pm
Rolando:

@Ben Grosser - You are a wise man !! - So true, my son, Julian is an artist / creator and learning to push though the first 10 minutes, he does what he thinks best, Win or Loose !! and it's starting to work in his favour.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
chresti:

↳ chresti @6:46
3 or 4 "likes"
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Song: "Mark's comments"
Fearing suddenly that Mark is going to ... flip-flop in his comments.


YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ Ben Grosser @6:46
Great to hear of some of these projects! Thanks Mark and Ben! If you need a wacky-ass app, you know who to email...
  6:48pm
hendrix wolfbat:

Webmaster harry. Lol 99 bottles and of beer omg
  6:48pm
Ben Grosser:

thanks to mark for the invite and to everyone for your discussion!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
ultradamno:

Cezanne would have gotten few likes too
  6:48pm
P-90:

Thanks @Ben
  6:48pm
hendrix wolfbat:

Ack typo lol
Avatar 6:48pm
MarciB:

Thanks Ben and Mark!
  6:49pm
hendrix wolfbat:

Thanks for another smart show!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
ultradamno:

Bye.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
PaulRobeson1924:

Thank U, Ben & Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

On the Minus platform, is a post referred to as a "less"?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
bleubombersune:

OH NO it's the mighty Overlord
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
chresti:

My first online chatting activity was on napster
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
Webhamster Henry:

Ken was addicted to the WWW really quickly!
  6:51pm
P.Welles:

Great show Ben and Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
dale:

i used to sneak into an office at my college to call my girlfriend long distance on a WATS line.
  6:52pm
?:

Was this 92 or 93, Ken
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
dale:

...that was like putting a man on the moon.
  6:52pm
Ben Grosser:

hi ken, it's just a post :)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Handy Haversack:

I think Netscape was what I first used, browser-wise.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Webhamster Henry:

I made a tricked out gopher page that used a camera that had its image created to ASCII art, so yes, you could get interactive pictures!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
chresti:

haha I had both
Avatar 6:53pm
herb.nyc:

1993,94- we at city college of ny were wowed by internet. One day my boss mistyped, NETCAPE. and he got pummeled by porn upon porn.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
PaulRobeson1924:

The more things change, the more they are the same

memento mori
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Handy Haversack:

What's wild is that THIS is prog!
Avatar 6:53pm
Rolando:

Gopher is alive and well at sdf.org and has a strong following. There is a massive collection of social tools including plain old chat in SSH and Terminal on BSD/ Unix - Sort of BBS / Chat rooms and much much more for those who are interested in this sort of thing.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Webhamster Henry:

Explorer also was not compliant with other browsers, causing endless webpage "polyfill" tsuris.
  6:54pm
Ben Grosser:

yes!!!! please play it!
  Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
SeaCreature:

We stayed late after work to get online. Inevitably porn, like 5 min later
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ Rolando @6:53
I'm pretty close to spinning up the old WFMU gopher on my own home server box.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
dale:

isn't it more krautrock?
  6:55pm
hendrix wolfbat:

I love this impending amalgamation
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
chresti:

that was a nice, stifled laugh!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
Webhamster Henry:

Actually, co-host with Dave Mandl.. I like co-hosting!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Webhamster Henry @6:55
Under two months until Marathon! Big Monday-night mashup!
  6:57pm
P-90:

Twitter is bitter
  6:57pm
hoeg:

wfmu is the best social media
Avatar 6:57pm
mrs.bucci:

Great show and conversation with both guests!
  6:57pm
swivs:

Social media wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t for all the people on it
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Handy Haversack:

Mark, Ben, Ken -- this was great. What a wonderful way to spend an hour. If only the whole internet were like this!
  6:58pm
Marie in Chicago:

Thanks, Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Wenzo:

thanks Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
chresti:

Thanks Mark and guests!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Wenzo:

& guest!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ mrs.bucci @6:57
mrs.bucci! K8 was so glad to chat with you two last weekend. Loads of fun!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
bleubombersune:

Mark Thanks
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Thanks, Mark and special guests. On the ever-popular subject of facial recognition, on cars this time: www.carbuzz.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
chresti:

↳ Song: "Dramatic reading of Ben Grosser's redaction of An...
this is great!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Will thee Sound Guy:

Thank you Mark and Ben!!!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Webhamster Henry:

Bits like this remind me of good ol' DJ Kenny G.
  7:00pm
Ben Grosser:

thanks everybody!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Mark Hurst:

Thanks, everyone! Good conversation tonight. Thanks to Ben for being with us, too.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Webhamster Henry @6:59
Yeah, Ubu this immediately. Well done, Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
chresti:

Exploitative
  1:45am
Ben Grosser:

↳ tim @6:12
thanks tim!
  1:46am
Ben Grosser:

↳ MarciB @6:29
yes, great book.
  1:49am
Ben Grosser:

↳ katie somewhere @6:38
exactly -- i tried to sonically react to his nodding :)
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