WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from March 28, 2022

Listener comments!
	🤖 6:00pm Handy Haversack: Evening, Mark and all the Techyon Drives. We are the robots. Doo doo doo doo.
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Useful Techtondiots!
	6:01pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	🤖 6:01pm Wendy del Formaggio: It's Techtonictime!
	🤖 6:01pm Will the Sound Guy: Hi Mark and all!!!
	🤖 6:01pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! All you Techtonic-heads!
	🤖 6:02pm chresti: Hi Mark and technoids!
	🤖 6:02pm Ken From Hyde Park: Help, I'm addicted to Techtonicotine!
	6:02pm dano59: Greetings from the Robot Underground. We have Alexa and there are no ransom demands
	🤖 6:02pm tim from washington: Hey Mark! Hey everybody!
	🤖 6:03pm PaulRobeson1920: Good evening everyone!
	6:05pm Niall: Oh, contra Spotify: www.youtube.com... This is the best aggregate argument against the platform I have seen. Never having used the service, they weren't on my radar, so the defense spending business was news to me. Screw those creeps.
	🤖 6:05pm Wendy del Formaggio: Last week's show was excellent! I listened on the archives and really enjoyed it. Damon is a good guest. I keep thinking about his statement about the number of book and record shops in Harvard Square in the 1980s versus now. Ugh.
	6:06pm Niall: Some or much of that video may not be new to you, but so it goes. Please move along if you feel a response along those lines brewing.
	6:06pm ultradamno: Oh! Gauntlet thrown!
	🤖 6:06pm Handy Haversack: Sticking with you, Mark.
	6:06pm Old Dave: Ready to be depressed, don't worry
	🤖 6:06pm tim from washington: In good news, Seattle's Pride Fest refused a $100,000 donation from Amazon. The main reason is Amazon's financial support of anti LQBTQ politicians. The secondary reason is that Amazon seemingly wanted to buy Pride Fest to rename it with Amazon in the fest's title. www.seattletimes.com...
	6:06pm B R M: Very interested in this book, glad for this important conversation
	🤖 6:07pm Wendy del Formaggio: ...and now I'm gonna go clean the kitchen while I listen, so if you respond to me, I won't see it for a while...
	6:07pm joe mulligan: I'm gonna stay! tough topics needs to be addressed
	🤖 6:07pm MarciB: I've been bracing myself all week for this, esp after Mark's warning...
	6:08pm ultradamno: So this might be more violent than the Oscars, huh?
	6:09pm ?: loved Damon's guest spot. More food for thought on non-support of tech greedheads. - dano59
	🤖 6:09pm Ken From Hyde Park: I wonder if that's what Russia is planning with the Ukrainians they're taking from their homes.
	🤖 6:10pm MarciB: @KenfromHydePark- I assumed they'd be brainwashed and sent back to resettle Ukraine...but maybe nor ;(
	6:11pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Good evening Mark
	6:12pm arb: Hi Mark and all! Supplemental reading in Harper's this month, an article called "The Spies Next Door". It's a good read, for those with Harper's subscription: harpers.org...
	6:14pm Mark Hurst: @arb thanks for the Harpers link - I hadn't seen that story
	6:15pm Mark Hurst: Hi all, thanks for joining! (and sticking with it, despite the difficult topic)
	6:17pm Dano59: @RR63 expect more of that & responses like: "We are at the beginning of a mass extinction and all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth."
	6:18pm yippie: would the people in Xinjiang be better off living in Afghanistan?
	🤖 6:18pm PaulRobeson1920: Oh my G-D
	🤖 6:19pm tim from washington: Does it matter if a person is jailed?
	6:19pm joe mulligan: yes PaulRobeson1920 OMG indeed. I never in my life thought I'd hear a rate card for organs in spoken word from another hummin
	6:20pm yippie: i know a seemingly normal upper east side grandma who bought a kidney for her husband
	6:20pm airbornepizza: this is why we can't have nice things...
	6:23pm ultradamno: This is why I have systematically damaged all my organs
	6:24pm joe mulligan: this reminds me to be thankful for the person who was an organ donor for the replacement of my right knee ACL in 2001. Done the proper way through Stanford Hospital of course!
	6:24pm yippie: but she waited until it was legalized before she let her son grow a few weed plants in the apartment
	🤖 6:24pm Will the Sound Guy: I agree ultradamno, I've systematically beat my organs up a bit too 🍻
	🤖 6:31pm MarciB: I don't know how anyone could NOT believe this horror. I worked at The Bettmann Archive and saw photos of 20th century atrocities I wish I could unsee. This story makes that era's hellscape seem like a warm-up.
	6:32pm Fishtown Mike: Great show, mark. Very thought provoking and sobering topic. Have to catch the balance on archives. Going out to play in the snow.
	6:34pm Mark Hurst: @Fishtown Mike thanks
	6:35pm Mark Hurst: @MarciB thanks & yep.. difficult material
	🤖 6:38pm PaulRobeson1920: The Nazi’s said look we are the most civilized people on Earth because we treat our farm animals so humanely … (do the perpetuators of these camps in China have any similar rational?) @Rev Rabbit- early computer technology- the IBM punchcards- the Germans had everyones information in a punchcard database- that is how they were able to keep meticulous records… an industry of death, documented and scrutinized for efficiency at every turn… A-B Aktion
	🤖 6:38pm MarciB: Amazing - his use of analog b+w film - very clever
	🤖 6:38pm Handy Haversack: MarciB, I think that's exactly right -- each regime of oppression learns from those who went before.
	6:39pm Bea: NYT story today on Nokia and Russian surveillance state: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/28/technology/nokia-russia-surveillance-system-sorm.html
	6:39pm joe mulligan: I have a "Silent Pocket" SLNT faraday bag for my phone I use to prevent radiation/EMF from burning my back while biking with it in a jersey pocket. worth the $60 for peace of mind
	🤖 6:40pm tim from washington: I've wondered about the use of analog technology to stymie spying. It works apparently.
	6:42pm Dano59: I'm all for culture jamming
	6:43pm Mark Hurst: @Bea thanks!
	6:44pm Old Dave: It isn't hard to sell a kidney here in North America. Or rent your womb or get cash for plasma, sperm and/or eggs. A decision we can make, for now. Many, many Chinese kids (mostly female) were effectively sold to Americans in the 1990s. How exactly am I supposed to be shocked that life is cheap in China in 2022? I've read Pearl Buck. Nevertheless, kudos for this reminder in your great show.
	6:48pm morphe': I missed the beginning ... in the harvesting .. they are taking "some things" and release the person/victim or strip mining and death?? or Both???
	6:49pm joe mulligan: casinos have been rumored to use gait surveillance/analysis to manage loss prevention
	🤖 6:49pm Handy Haversack: To the ruling class, the lives of all workers, all "Others" are cheap. It's not a characteristic of China. It's a characteristic of power. And when there are no checks on power, life gets cheaper and cheaper.
	🤖 6:49pm PaulRobeson1920: What is actionable? Now that we know this is happening?
	6:50pm Dano59: Just watched Level 16. Chilling.
	6:50pm Cmurtha: Did Mr.Gutman mention how this belt and road regimes are propped up by European and American tech firms? The whole disconnect between human rights discourse and how no state is actually doing anything about it. The face scanners and other technology he is mentioning is not coming from Azerbaijan and China. Maybe he talks about that more in the book/it was mentioned at the start. But talking about regimes of our current dystopia seems misguided when these regimes are propped up by outside powers in many ways. I suspect it was and I just missed it.
	🤖 6:51pm tim from washington: Wow. Man oh man. The first part of the interview was harrowing and the second half really stretched my perceptions.
	6:51pm Daybreak is Thinking Thoughts: Morphe, strip mining all valuable organ and then to the crematorium.
	6:51pm Cmurtha: Also having been to Azerbaijan - that is very, very new infrastructure. Most orwellian place I've ever been to use a cliche. But, they were certainly not that advanced when I was there last.
	🤖 6:52pm Ken From Hyde Park: I recall a story from China some years ago about "vampires" who pick up people to bring to blood donation centers.
	6:52pm arb: Thanks for spotlighting such a difficult subject Mark
	6:53pm Fredericks: This sounds like a capitalist high tech horror movie.
	🤖 6:53pm Handy Haversack: Cmurtha, Mark has certainly talked about the willing complicity if U.S. tech firms in all this -- and how easily it could be transferred to here.
	6:54pm Cmurtha: Boomerang Theory - the colonial space (or imperialist space) is where things are practiced and then come back. Americans should pay close attention not only to China but to the oppression of Palestinians since the ethnic cleansing and practices there are very much already coming back to the USA
	6:54pm Old Dave: Gutmann is a compelling witness. If we lived in Taiwan I'd be packing bags and aiming for Canada. Huawei is surveilling us already...
	6:55pm WR: The point relevant given at the end is the need for more all encompassing effort to help activists and human rights workers to be able to work without surveillance state compromising the work and threatening the lives of those involved. Then the pivot to tech surveillance permeating our lives.
	🤖 6:56pm Will the Sound Guy: I don't like the idea of digital id cards
	🤖 6:56pm tim from washington: Are the many many senior citizens in Arizona that tech savvy? Seems like this idea won't go over too well with the largest voting block.
	6:57pm morphe': If I am not wrong - the UK really started the full on daily suveliance in The North of Ireland .. If a person went from West Belfast to the Centre to East Belfast .. there were P-Checks on pedestrians and cars and the persons were traced from a-Z The Pop Group = Who Guards the Guards 198??? lyrics "IRELAND IS THEir TESTING GROUND ...."
	🤖 6:58pm DjLorraine: Thanks for the awareness Mark Hurst
	6:58pm Cmurtha: thank you Mark
	🤖 6:58pm Will the Sound Guy: Thank you Mark!!!
	6:58pm listener 126464: Thank you Mark.
	🤖 6:58pm Handy Haversack: Thanks for this, Mark. It's dark and hard, but it's such a necessary thing. I hope people listen and wonder what the price of convenience is. Later on, all. We are the robots. Doo doo doo doo.
	🤖 6:58pm tim from washington: Thanks again, Mark, for the work you do for this show.
	6:58pm Old Dave: And didn't the pandemic hasten this whole shit show?
	6:58pm morphe': Thanks mark Hurst and all !!!
	6:58pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Thank you Mark
	🤖 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks, Mark and Ethan!
	7:00pm WR: Just watched Welcome to Chechnya and people in Russia helping LGBT avoiding execution. Many resonances. Any anti war activists in Russia now are likely facing repressive retaliation. Tech surveillance enables all of that.
	7:00pm lazy pierogi: chilling. thanks mark!
	7:00pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone
	7:00pm WR: Thank you Mark!
	10:35am Fishtown Mike: Great show Mark. Just listened to the balance I'd missed. Here's a link to the Faraday cage bags mentioned in the interview: derstalin.de...

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from March 28, 2022

View Mark Hurst's profile

Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

Also available as an MP3 podcast. More info at our Podcast Central page.

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Mon. Dec 23rd, 6pm - 7pm: Don Fleming guest hosts Techtonic

March 28, 2022: Ethan Gutmann on digital spycraft in human rights work in China

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Today: Ethan Gutmann on digital spycraft in human rights work in China

Links:

• The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China's Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem by Ethan Gutmann - find it on Indiebound

• UN human rights experts alarmed by ‘organ harvesting’ allegations (UN's Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, June 14, 2021)

• From China Tribunal (March 2020), The Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China.

• Arizona Offers Driver’s Licenses on iPhones. Other States Want to Be Next. (NYT, March 26, 2022): "On Wednesday, Arizona became the first state to offer digital copies of driver’s licenses and state identification cards as part of a sweeping partnership with Apple that was announced last year. The project is expected to expand to Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Hawaii, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Ohio, Oklahoma and Utah, as well as the territory of Puerto Rico. The initiative has been promoted by the tech giant and the states for its convenience."

• From the Tech Transparency Project (March 7, 2022): "Five Amazon suppliers have been linked directly or indirectly to forced labor of ethnic minorities in Xinjiang. Some firms have remained on Amazon's public supplier list long after allegations initially surfaced." See also this thread.

• Tesla opened a dealership in Xinjiang, China, despite widespread reports of Uyghur oppression there (CNBC, Jan 4, 2022)

• Voices from the fields of Xinjiang (by Ethan Gutmann, Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, Feb 22, 2022)

PAST EPISODES: techtonic.fm lists recent Techtonic shows.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist	Track	Approx. start time
Ethan Gutmann on the digital spycraft of human rights work
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune "Game Boy Tune" by "Tomaš Dvořák"
	Mark's intro "Mark's intro"
	Interview with Ethan Gutmann "Interview with Ethan Gutmann"	0:09:30 (Pop-up)
	Mark's comments "Mark's comments"	0:46:45 (Pop-up)
Twilight Archive	Secretly Measured	0:56:00 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	🤖 6:00pm Handy Haversack: Evening, Mark and all the Techyon Drives. We are the robots. Doo doo doo doo.
	6:00pm ultradamno: Mark! Useful Techtondiots!
	6:01pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	🤖 6:01pm Wendy del Formaggio: It's Techtonictime!
	🤖 6:01pm Will the Sound Guy: Hi Mark and all!!!
	🤖 6:01pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! All you Techtonic-heads!
	🤖 6:02pm chresti: Hi Mark and technoids!
	🤖 6:02pm Ken From Hyde Park: Help, I'm addicted to Techtonicotine!
	6:02pm dano59: Greetings from the Robot Underground. We have Alexa and there are no ransom demands
	🤖 6:02pm tim from washington: Hey Mark! Hey everybody!
	🤖 6:03pm PaulRobeson1920: Good evening everyone!
	6:05pm Niall: Oh, contra Spotify: www.youtube.com... This is the best aggregate argument against the platform I have seen. Never having used the service, they weren't on my radar, so the defense spending business was news to me. Screw those creeps.
	🤖 6:05pm Wendy del Formaggio: Last week's show was excellent! I listened on the archives and really enjoyed it. Damon is a good guest. I keep thinking about his statement about the number of book and record shops in Harvard Square in the 1980s versus now. Ugh.
	6:06pm Niall: Some or much of that video may not be new to you, but so it goes. Please move along if you feel a response along those lines brewing.
	6:06pm ultradamno: Oh! Gauntlet thrown!
	🤖 6:06pm Handy Haversack: Sticking with you, Mark.
	6:06pm Old Dave: Ready to be depressed, don't worry
	🤖 6:06pm tim from washington: In good news, Seattle's Pride Fest refused a $100,000 donation from Amazon. The main reason is Amazon's financial support of anti LQBTQ politicians. The secondary reason is that Amazon seemingly wanted to buy Pride Fest to rename it with Amazon in the fest's title. www.seattletimes.com...
	6:06pm B R M: Very interested in this book, glad for this important conversation
	🤖 6:07pm Wendy del Formaggio: ...and now I'm gonna go clean the kitchen while I listen, so if you respond to me, I won't see it for a while...
	6:07pm joe mulligan: I'm gonna stay! tough topics needs to be addressed
	🤖 6:07pm MarciB: I've been bracing myself all week for this, esp after Mark's warning...
	6:08pm ultradamno: So this might be more violent than the Oscars, huh?
	6:09pm ?: loved Damon's guest spot. More food for thought on non-support of tech greedheads. - dano59
	🤖 6:09pm Ken From Hyde Park: I wonder if that's what Russia is planning with the Ukrainians they're taking from their homes.
	🤖 6:10pm MarciB: @KenfromHydePark- I assumed they'd be brainwashed and sent back to resettle Ukraine...but maybe nor ;(
	6:11pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Good evening Mark
	6:12pm arb: Hi Mark and all! Supplemental reading in Harper's this month, an article called "The Spies Next Door". It's a good read, for those with Harper's subscription: harpers.org...
	6:14pm Mark Hurst: @arb thanks for the Harpers link - I hadn't seen that story
	6:15pm Mark Hurst: Hi all, thanks for joining! (and sticking with it, despite the difficult topic)
	6:17pm Dano59: @RR63 expect more of that & responses like: "We are at the beginning of a mass extinction and all you can talk about is money and fairytales of eternal economic growth."
	6:18pm yippie: would the people in Xinjiang be better off living in Afghanistan?
	🤖 6:18pm PaulRobeson1920: Oh my G-D
	🤖 6:19pm tim from washington: Does it matter if a person is jailed?
	6:19pm joe mulligan: yes PaulRobeson1920 OMG indeed. I never in my life thought I'd hear a rate card for organs in spoken word from another hummin
	6:20pm yippie: i know a seemingly normal upper east side grandma who bought a kidney for her husband
	6:20pm airbornepizza: this is why we can't have nice things...
	6:23pm ultradamno: This is why I have systematically damaged all my organs
	6:24pm joe mulligan: this reminds me to be thankful for the person who was an organ donor for the replacement of my right knee ACL in 2001. Done the proper way through Stanford Hospital of course!
	6:24pm yippie: but she waited until it was legalized before she let her son grow a few weed plants in the apartment
	🤖 6:24pm Will the Sound Guy: I agree ultradamno, I've systematically beat my organs up a bit too 🍻
	🤖 6:31pm MarciB: I don't know how anyone could NOT believe this horror. I worked at The Bettmann Archive and saw photos of 20th century atrocities I wish I could unsee. This story makes that era's hellscape seem like a warm-up.
	6:32pm Fishtown Mike: Great show, mark. Very thought provoking and sobering topic. Have to catch the balance on archives. Going out to play in the snow.
	6:34pm Mark Hurst: @Fishtown Mike thanks
	6:35pm Mark Hurst: @MarciB thanks & yep.. difficult material
	🤖 6:38pm PaulRobeson1920: The Nazi’s said look we are the most civilized people on Earth because we treat our farm animals so humanely … (do the perpetuators of these camps in China have any similar rational?) @Rev Rabbit- early computer technology- the IBM punchcards- the Germans had everyones information in a punchcard database- that is how they were able to keep meticulous records… an industry of death, documented and scrutinized for efficiency at every turn… A-B Aktion
	🤖 6:38pm MarciB: Amazing - his use of analog b+w film - very clever
	🤖 6:38pm Handy Haversack: MarciB, I think that's exactly right -- each regime of oppression learns from those who went before.
	6:39pm Bea: NYT story today on Nokia and Russian surveillance state: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/28/technology/nokia-russia-surveillance-system-sorm.html
	6:39pm joe mulligan: I have a "Silent Pocket" SLNT faraday bag for my phone I use to prevent radiation/EMF from burning my back while biking with it in a jersey pocket. worth the $60 for peace of mind
	🤖 6:40pm tim from washington: I've wondered about the use of analog technology to stymie spying. It works apparently.
	6:42pm Dano59: I'm all for culture jamming
	6:43pm Mark Hurst: @Bea thanks!
	6:44pm Old Dave: It isn't hard to sell a kidney here in North America. Or rent your womb or get cash for plasma, sperm and/or eggs. A decision we can make, for now. Many, many Chinese kids (mostly female) were effectively sold to Americans in the 1990s. How exactly am I supposed to be shocked that life is cheap in China in 2022? I've read Pearl Buck. Nevertheless, kudos for this reminder in your great show.
	6:48pm morphe': I missed the beginning ... in the harvesting .. they are taking "some things" and release the person/victim or strip mining and death?? or Both???
	6:49pm joe mulligan: casinos have been rumored to use gait surveillance/analysis to manage loss prevention
	🤖 6:49pm Handy Haversack: To the ruling class, the lives of all workers, all "Others" are cheap. It's not a characteristic of China. It's a characteristic of power. And when there are no checks on power, life gets cheaper and cheaper.
	🤖 6:49pm PaulRobeson1920: What is actionable? Now that we know this is happening?
	6:50pm Dano59: Just watched Level 16. Chilling.
	6:50pm Cmurtha: Did Mr.Gutman mention how this belt and road regimes are propped up by European and American tech firms? The whole disconnect between human rights discourse and how no state is actually doing anything about it. The face scanners and other technology he is mentioning is not coming from Azerbaijan and China. Maybe he talks about that more in the book/it was mentioned at the start. But talking about regimes of our current dystopia seems misguided when these regimes are propped up by outside powers in many ways. I suspect it was and I just missed it.
	🤖 6:51pm tim from washington: Wow. Man oh man. The first part of the interview was harrowing and the second half really stretched my perceptions.
	6:51pm Daybreak is Thinking Thoughts: Morphe, strip mining all valuable organ and then to the crematorium.
	6:51pm Cmurtha: Also having been to Azerbaijan - that is very, very new infrastructure. Most orwellian place I've ever been to use a cliche. But, they were certainly not that advanced when I was there last.
	🤖 6:52pm Ken From Hyde Park: I recall a story from China some years ago about "vampires" who pick up people to bring to blood donation centers.
	6:52pm arb: Thanks for spotlighting such a difficult subject Mark
	6:53pm Fredericks: This sounds like a capitalist high tech horror movie.
	🤖 6:53pm Handy Haversack: Cmurtha, Mark has certainly talked about the willing complicity if U.S. tech firms in all this -- and how easily it could be transferred to here.
	6:54pm Cmurtha: Boomerang Theory - the colonial space (or imperialist space) is where things are practiced and then come back. Americans should pay close attention not only to China but to the oppression of Palestinians since the ethnic cleansing and practices there are very much already coming back to the USA
	6:54pm Old Dave: Gutmann is a compelling witness. If we lived in Taiwan I'd be packing bags and aiming for Canada. Huawei is surveilling us already...
	6:55pm WR: The point relevant given at the end is the need for more all encompassing effort to help activists and human rights workers to be able to work without surveillance state compromising the work and threatening the lives of those involved. Then the pivot to tech surveillance permeating our lives.
	🤖 6:56pm Will the Sound Guy: I don't like the idea of digital id cards
	🤖 6:56pm tim from washington: Are the many many senior citizens in Arizona that tech savvy? Seems like this idea won't go over too well with the largest voting block.
	6:57pm morphe': If I am not wrong - the UK really started the full on daily suveliance in The North of Ireland .. If a person went from West Belfast to the Centre to East Belfast .. there were P-Checks on pedestrians and cars and the persons were traced from a-Z The Pop Group = Who Guards the Guards 198??? lyrics "IRELAND IS THEir TESTING GROUND ...."
	🤖 6:58pm DjLorraine: Thanks for the awareness Mark Hurst
	6:58pm Cmurtha: thank you Mark
	🤖 6:58pm Will the Sound Guy: Thank you Mark!!!
	6:58pm listener 126464: Thank you Mark.
	🤖 6:58pm Handy Haversack: Thanks for this, Mark. It's dark and hard, but it's such a necessary thing. I hope people listen and wonder what the price of convenience is. Later on, all. We are the robots. Doo doo doo doo.
	🤖 6:58pm tim from washington: Thanks again, Mark, for the work you do for this show.
	6:58pm Old Dave: And didn't the pandemic hasten this whole shit show?
	6:58pm morphe': Thanks mark Hurst and all !!!
	6:58pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Thank you Mark
	🤖 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks, Mark and Ethan!
	7:00pm WR: Just watched Welcome to Chechnya and people in Russia helping LGBT avoiding execution. Many resonances. Any anti war activists in Russia now are likely facing repressive retaliation. Tech surveillance enables all of that.
	7:00pm lazy pierogi: chilling. thanks mark!
	7:00pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, everyone
	7:00pm WR: Thank you Mark!
	10:35am Fishtown Mike: Great show Mark. Just listened to the balance I'd missed. Here's a link to the Faraday cage bags mentioned in the interview: derstalin.de...

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from March 28, 2022

Upcoming events:

Listener comments!

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