Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from August 5, 2024 Favoriting

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

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Favoriting August 5, 2024: Jon Leidecker, aka Wobbly, on Negativland and fair use

Listen to this show: MP3 - 128K | Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Playlist image Favoriting

Today: Jon Leidecker, aka Wobbly, on Negativland and fair use

Stand By for Failure: A Documentary About Negativland (Sunday, August 11, 2024 – doors at 6:30pm, film at 7pm). Hosted by Station Manager Ken Freedman. Live Zoom Q&A to follow with director Ryan Worsley.

Negativland website

Wobbly website (Jon’s solo project)

Over the Edge at KPFA

Over the Edge archives at the Internet Archive

Variations podcast, curated by Jon Leidecker, from the Museum of Contemporary Art of Barcelona (MACBA)

Fair Use: The Story of the Letter U and the Numeral 2, the book by Negativland

Fair Use as Market Failure: A Structural and Economic Analysis of the Betamax Case and Its Predecess (Columbia Law Review, December 1982) by Wendy J. Gordon

Station Manager Ken’s show from Jan 24, 2024 – interview with Mark Hosler, Jon Leidecker, and David Wills

People Like Us (Vicki Bennett) and her WFMU show Do or DIY

The Statute of Anne, “also known as the Copyright Act 1709 or the Copyright Act 1710, was an act of the Parliament of Great Britain passed in 1710, [and] was the first statute to provide for copyright regulated by the government and courts, rather than by private parties.”

P(doom) is “a term in AI safety that refers to the probability of catastrophic outcomes (or “doom”) as a result of artificial intelligence.”

13 Ways of Looking at AI, Art & Music by Jennifer Walshe (Dec 15, 2023): “AI isn’t coming for your jobs. Humans are. ‘A.I.’ is a way to avoid talking about that.”

DADABOTS: “Eliminate humans from music”

RELENTLESS DOPPELGANGER \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/ \m/: recording of livestream by Dadabots

PIZZAFIRE (Oct 23, 2023): documentary telling the “origin story of AI band DADABOTS”

Beatboxing thru a Neural Net (Nov 9, 2023) by DADABOTS

KRAFTWERK

The League of Automatic Music Composers

Jon Leidecker – United Feedback

Louis and Bebe Barron, electronic music pioneers

David Tudor, experimental music composer

The Sonic Arts Union, experimental music collective

Feedback works of Éliane Radigue (1969-1970)

Roland Kayn, electronic music composer

Gregory Bateson, an “English anthropologist, social scientist, linguist, visual anthropologist, semiotician, and cyberneticist whose work intersected that of many other fields.”

George Dyson and his books Darwin Among the Machines: The Evolution of Global Intelligence and Turing’s Cathedral, which covers the work of John von Neumann

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Artist Track Album Label Images Approx. start time
  Jon Leidecker, aka Wobbly, on Negativland and fair use
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Favoriting Machinarium Soundtrack  n/a 
Favoriting
 
  Mark's intro      
Favoriting
 
Negativland  Don't Don't Get Freaked Out   Favoriting The World Will Decide  Seeland Records 
Favoriting
0:05:56 (MP3 | Pop-up)
  Interview with Jon Leidecker      
Favoriting
0:08:55 (MP3 | Pop-up)
  Mark's comments      
Favoriting
0:47:28 (MP3 | Pop-up)
Wobbly  Every Piano   Favoriting Popular Monitress  Hausu Mountain 
Favoriting
0:53:08 (MP3 | Pop-up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar 8/4 6:01pm
People Like Us:

Looking forward! And back! And sideways!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 3:18pm
Y. pestis:

Shop as Usual... and Avoid Panic Buying
Avatar Swag For Life Member 5:47pm
ultradamno:

Mark! Techtontivlanders!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 5:48pm
ultradamno:

↳ People Like Us @6:01
...and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 5:59pm
NotARealDoctor in Norfolk VA:

Hello Mark, just started reading Your Face Belongs to Us by Kashmir Hill over the weekend and boy it's scary stuff!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
Webhamster Henry:

A big Wobbly Welcome to you!
Avatar 6:01pm
People Like Us:

good evening
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Bas NL:

Mi Mark! All!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Kat in the chat:

Nice list o' links!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
tim:

Hi Mark and everyone! I was really hoping that tonight was Sandwiches Part 2 hosted by Matt Warwick but this discussion looks pretty dang cool!
Avatar 6:03pm
joe_rosevear:

Hello, Mark and all the Techies!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Peter from Saranac Lake NY:

Hello Mark and tech fiends.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
spodiodi:

Wobbly time! woohoo!

hi Mark and all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Ike:

Last summer I discovered ITAA thanks to this show and it has helped me a lot! internetaddictsanonymous.org
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
spodiodi:

yay!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
Kat in the chat:

Good news for once
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
Kat in the chat:

Would love to be there
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
spodiodi:

need a ride from sf
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
tim:

Regarding the Fair Use book, I see SST is pressing and selling Helter Stupid. Is Negativland cool with it? Or did Greg Ginn pull his sleazeball crap?
Avatar 6:07pm
People Like Us:

↳ tim @6:07
that wouldn't have been authorised by them
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
JeremyB:

Funny that google news itself has no article mentioning the antitrust ruling.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
spodiodi:

Wobbly, your work makes life enjoyable
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
tim:

↳ People Like Us @6:07
Thanks! That's what I was thinking.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
spodiodi:

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
  6:11pm
GC in Bmore:

Enjoyed Jon L many times at ATA and elsewhere in the Bay Area! Thanks for this.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:11pm
Webhamster Henry:

"Not programmed for love!" The robots we were promised. wfmu.org...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
spodiodi:

so good
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
ultradamno:

The Amazon ads that air during The Boys on Freevee would be a goldmine of sampling opportunities for this sort of thing. They're like fake ads made to appear in a dystopian science fiction movie, but they're real and apparently oblivious to how creepy they are.
Avatar 6:14pm
Niall:

I didn’t know Leidecker was affiliated with Negativland beyond being in that general plunderphonic circle of friends.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:16pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Hello, Mark and Wobbly types.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm
dale:

hey now. hour of crap played a ton of those programs a month or two back.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm
mariano:

Yes! When I lived in San Francisco, Over the Edge on KPFA was one of the highlights.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ People Like Us @6:01
Hi Vicki! Thanks so much for joining.
Avatar 🤖 6:18pm
herb.nyc:

Hey, will try and come to screening. I’m only casually familiar w negativeland. I’m v sure the band is in this compilation cd, 2000(?)-


To protest the expansion of copyright law, the magazine sponsored the Illegal Art exhibition, website and compact disc, all featuring artists challenging copyright or art works which were the subject of copyright suits. Stay Free! also published a free media literacy curriculum.
Avatar 6:18pm
People Like Us:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:17
hi Mark! I'm trying to get Jon on chat but he's on a phone
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:18pm
Mark Hurst:

And welcome to YPestis, ultra, NotaReal, Webham, Bas, Kat, tim, joe_r, Peter, spodiodi, Ike, Jeremy, GC, Niall, KfHP, dale, mariano, and herb!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:20pm
cosmic matrix:

wow, i'm a little late, but how good is this???
Avatar 6:22pm
dan in wisconsin:

Negativland - Time Zones feels pretty timeless and prescient
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:22pm
Kat in the chat:

↳ dale @6:16
Don-O is still playing them now and then
  6:23pm
chresti:

Hi mark and Jon and techtoniacs!
We’re in SF!
Avatar 6:23pm
Niall:

Deconstructing Beck: man, this takes me back.
Avatar 6:23pm
People Like Us:

hi chresti
  6:24pm
chresti:

Yay evaporating lawyers!
Avatar 6:24pm
People Like Us:

haha
  6:25pm
chresti:

Hi people like us!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
Kat in the chat:

What happened to Girl Talk? I went to a couple of those shows.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
tim:

What is Kid 606 up to?
Avatar 6:25pm
People Like Us:

↳ chresti @6:25
hi Chresti! More Cinechamber in Nov!
Avatar 6:25pm
Niall:

I had Extracted Celluloid and Commercial Ad Hoc, too. Oh! And that terrific collaboration between Wobbly and People Like Us. Lorne Green singing “Wide Open Spaces?” Never grow old, folks.
Avatar 🤖 6:25pm
herb.nyc:

Oh, Jon mentioned Stay Free! magazine’s Illegal Art. (& he used word FLAGRANT, commonly said by jon wurster for Best Show skits)
Avatar 6:25pm
People Like Us:

↳ tim @6:25
he's still doing stuff
Avatar 6:26pm
People Like Us:

you don't get sued but robots take you down on corporate platforms with a 3 strike rule
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:26pm
tim:

↳ People Like Us @6:25
Oh good!
Avatar 6:27pm
Niall:

↳ Kat in the chat @6:25
I was the sole paying member of the audience at. A show he played in Detroit with Kero and Xanopticon. What a shitshow that was. He covered “Scentless Apprentice” while stripping.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
Mark Hurst:

I've posted links to People Like Us and Do or DIY on the playlist at left - but you can check out Vicki's work here: peoplelikeus.org
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Sometimes I hear about political events that play music without the permission of the artists.
  6:27pm
ledzeppelinsucks:

Insurance keep cases they know they can win out of court to prohibit discovery.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
Kat in the chat:

↳ Niall @6:27
LOL!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
mackeral:

glad to be here, folks
Avatar 6:28pm
People Like Us:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:27
thanks
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
Kat in the chat:

Vicki's new "Copia" is not only wonderful listening but has WFMU peeples on it
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
tim:

Wow! This is fascinating. I like Negativland's approach. Legal acumen combined with playing a confident game of chicken with the big dogs.
Avatar 6:29pm
People Like Us:

↳ Kat in the chat @6:28
Jon is on it
Avatar 6:29pm
Niall:

Is Steev Hise still active, I wonder?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
Kat in the chat:

↳ People Like Us @6:29
yes!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
ultradamno:

I saw this morning Elon Musk has a new suit against Open AI because he thought they were going to work for the betterment of people and earth and the universe when he invested in them...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ People Like Us @6:26
You can check out my experiments with machine learning, music, prose, and who knows what :
largelanguage.bandcamp.com
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
Peter from Saranac Lake NY:

Let me get this straight. This guy is slagging AI - rightfully so. But he claims it's OK for Negativland to sample anything they want without paying a royalty?

Sorry, that doesn't fly.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
joe mulligan:

Kalle Lasn culture jamming not Alex Jones. it's like they stole the concept for bad use
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
mackeral:

yes, the "art" stuff is slight of hand.
Avatar 6:35pm
Niall:

↳ Peter from Saranac Lake NY @6:32
Negativland and their ilk typically present their work as critique of and commentary on the sampled works; that’s the point of fair use as defined, while OpenAi just plagiarized it. I don’t see a disconnect.
Avatar 6:35pm
People Like Us:

Fair Use allows this
  6:35pm
chresti:

Franco saw a self-driving car with cameras all over it surveilling all directions
Avatar 6:36pm
Niall:

Oh man, I haven’t thought about “Wind Done Gone” in like 25 years…
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
DjLorraine:

Sorry i was late. A sick friend needed food delivered to his water damaged condo.
  6:38pm
chresti:

THEY’RE EVIL!
  6:38pm
ledzeppelinsucks:

Those cars stage at 38th and Balboa, there are probably 7 of them parked in front of BofA now. They hoard the diagonal parking there.
Avatar 6:39pm
People Like Us:

I hear you can put a traffic cone on them and they stop
Avatar 6:39pm
Niall:

↳ People Like Us @6:39
“LOOK AT ME, I’M A GIANT WITCH.”
Avatar 6:39pm
People Like Us:

consciousness is in every object
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
mackeral:

↳ People Like Us @6:39
"But on the underside, it didn't say nothin'" - Woody Guthrie
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
ultradamno:

I tried to get an AI to make a Furiosa and Garfield mash-up, I don't think it's in danger of infringing on any copyright mastodon.social...
  6:43pm
ledzeppelinsucks:

Halloween and Halloween party night, Santa Con and gay parties and parades where regalia is likely worn are days when the Acars have the day off as they haven't learned costumes.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm
Kat in the chat:

I haven't played with AI because I keep thinking about what Mark says about how it wastes resources on a colossal scale
Avatar 6:44pm
Niall:

↳ ultradamno @6:43
It just needs the chrome spray-paint!
Avatar 6:45pm
People Like Us:

new tools always get used in creative ways - first the object exists but then follows that use for it
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:45pm
cosmic matrix:

so many great links, mark! not to mention fantastic interview.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ cosmic matrix @6:45
Thanks! Jon had so many good pointers.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
Peter from Saranac Lake NY:

↳ Niall @6:35
My problem is that Negativland seem to think that they can sample for free. As someone who writes music, I have an issue with that. IMHO if we all went along with Negativland's approach, pretty soon it's back to the badf old days of Napster.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
Mark Hurst:

Fair use en.wikipedia.org...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
spodiodi:

thanks Wobbly!!!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
PaulRobeson1924:

Mhmm
Avatar 6:51pm
People Like Us:

We all breath in other people's ideas. No one is an island. Stay Free!
Avatar 6:51pm
Niall:

↳ Peter from Saranac Lake NY @6:47
Negativland typically falls within fair use; it’s not the same as a SoundCloud rapper making millions off your hooks, for which you would have recourse.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
Kat in the chat:

It matters what you do with it
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
cosmic matrix:

it's all about intent
Avatar 6:52pm
alan the painter:

Mark, Thank you for a great interview.
Avatar 6:52pm
People Like Us:

you cannot necessarily harm something by referencing it, in fact you may promote it, enhance and enrich it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
ultradamno:

Maybe Goblin tonight mastodon.social...
Avatar 6:53pm
Niall:

Also, to crib from Lautreamont, “plagiarism is necessary. Progress implies it.”
Avatar 6:54pm
People Like Us:

"To create is divine, to reproduce is human.” -- Man Ray
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
cosmic matrix:

now i have too many tabs open
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Kat in the chat:

↳ People Like Us @6:54
hmm, that sounds familiar
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
cosmic matrix:

the kids are always like "stop copying me! so and so copied me!"
Avatar 6:55pm
Matt_E:

Great show, thanks Mark
Avatar 6:55pm
People Like Us:

hi
Avatar 6:56pm
Niall:

↳ People Like Us @6:54
“We must confront the basic facts: mankind is kept alive by bestial acts.” Or something like that. -Brecht
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
spodiodi:

thanks, Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Kat in the chat:

yes thank you Mark! usually lurking on Mondays but unlurked for this one
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Bas NL:

Thanks Mark, Jon, Vicki! Interesting topic.
  6:56pm
chresti:

Thanks Mark and Jon!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
cosmic matrix:

many thanks
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
bleubombersune:

Marks Thanks great interview
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Kat in the chat:

↳ Song: "Every Piano" by "Wobbly"
OH THIS IS MY FAVORITE
Avatar 6:57pm
Niall:

I like that Messiaen album Wobbly did. regards?
Avatar 6:57pm
People Like Us:

↳ Niall @6:57
yes
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Webhamster Henry:

Nice show tonight!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
tim:

Thank you, Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Mark Hurst:

Thanks, everyone!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Webhamster Henry:

A gazillion links tonight, as is appropriate!
  6:59pm
ledzeppelinsucks:

Crews in Yosemite National Park say they have found two missing hikers from Santa Cruz.
  7:02pm
tikbartok:

Dave Mandel, aloha from Maui!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5mYFRC9PY6aFNBH48

if this link doesn't open it's a photo of a large store window out a business called "it's complicated", in Paia, Maui
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