WFMU: Irwin Chusid: Playlist from July 16, 2014

Listener comments!
	👻 3:06pm rrg: Why do you get stuck doing the EAS test all the time?
	3:09pm Irwin: Because I'm one of the few adults on staff.
	3:09pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...801, Danielle Dax, Screamfeeder - &?...
	3:09pm northguineahills: Seriously, 2/3rds of the time I hear it on WFMU, it's Irwin.
	3:09pm P-90: But he's got a WAY with the EAS test! Hi Irwin and all Chusidiots!
	👻 3:09pm rrg: Doesn't seniority count for anything?
	3:09pm Listening Out There: "Screamfeeder" would also be a great name for an RSS reader.
	3:10pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: - besides - EAS & TNKs - it just works...
	3:13pm Mike East: P-90 FTW with "Chusidiots".. Brilliant
	👻 3:15pm SeanG: awesome song
	3:17pm k beach: 2 wicked songsss bak2bak
	3:30pm berbo: Should I take the pizza, or what's behind the curtain?
	👻 3:31pm rrg: If Monty offers you a chance to switch, take it.
	3:31pm Laura L: Peace as a last resort... will there be a golf course and tennis courts?
	3:31pm Michael: Does Monty have pints of John Courage like the old Maxwell's did?
	3:32pm Irwin: The runner-up name was Ruth's Chris Monty Hall.
	3:32pm P-90: There actually was some good beer at Monty the other night...
	3:34pm P-90: I think "Famous Original Ruth's Chris Maxwell's Monty Hall" was in the mix somewhere too...
	3:35pm Mike East: I just now got it...cuz its on Montgomery Street.
	3:36pm Mike East: This weird al song stuck in my head all day yesterday and into this morning.
	3:36pm P-90: ding!
	3:36pm MikeY: Weird AL Love it
	3:36pm Whosondephone: I can't believe it!
	3:36pm Whosondephone: THUMBS UP!
	3:37pm natch!: no x in espresso. weird genius
	3:37pm berbo: Weird Al for Sec. Ed.
	3:38pm fred: video there: youtu.be...
	3:38pm PKNY: I'd rather hear Weird Al rap than 99.9% of the rappers out today.
	3:38pm Roberto: "Incohairent"
	3:39pm GeesyCreesy: I'm so pleased with this and his parody of Pharrell's "Happy".
	3:40pm P-90: "Tacky" IS brilliant too
	3:42pm natch!: just googled "eclectic" and Irwin's picture appeared
	3:42pm fred: I'm an unofficial copy editor at work, meaning that I volunteer to read and correct paper drafts, so this Weird Al track is close to my heart
	👻 3:43pm rrg: We have at least one other (former) copy editor among us today.
	3:47pm Sem Chumbo: At least.
	3:50pm fleep: Django itunes.apple.com...
	3:55pm Irwin: Doesn't appear on his wiki discog: en.wikipedia.org... Probably a comp. Great pianist. Thanks, fleeper.
	3:56pm Laura L: Former managing editor here, but I'm not going to ask Irwin to change the hyphen to an en-dash between the dates in the Sol Mogerman Album entry.
	3:58pm holland oats: their's no chance he would any way
	3:58pm Irwin: Not sure of en-dash keystrokes on a non-Mac keyboard.
	4:01pm Jack: I love that you play Spirit.
	4:01pm natch!: alt-0150
	4:02pm Irwin: I love the droning guitar of Randy California.
	4:03pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...huh; I'll bookmark this: english.stackexchange.com... - to read prolly when hell freezes over...for which I'll passively rely on Irwin's ESA...
	4:04pm Irwin: Hate Cassidy's clumsy drums on all Spirit recordings.
	4:05pm Alison Porchnik: you can't choose your family, as they say.
	4:06pm Jack: huh. I thought Cassidy's (jazz influenced) drumming helped make their unique sound. And yes, love California's guitar. Beautiful, those endless one note drones.
	4:07pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: - after all, named 'California' by Jimi Hendrix in Greenwich Village - anyone didn't know...
	4:08pm Irwin: Cassidy might've been good jazz drummer, but he's a ham-fisted rock drummer. His solo on "It's All the Same" might be the least-interesting recorded drum solo on a major label release.
	4:13pm Jack: That's a fact, and in concert as well. Huge drum set, but boring drum solo. Almost "Inna-gadda-da-vida" bad.
	4:14pm fred: Good that you hedged by adding "major label" there. I could have thought of way too many challengers otherwise. But there are good drummers around today. I'd love to see one live (there's nothing going on here these days)
	4:14pm ?: Good, 'clean it all up & purge' music!!
	4:20pm Jack: I don't get out much these days to see live music, but do drummers take long solos anymore? It was de rigueur for most 60's and early 70's shows. And mostly boring. Well, I'm not a drummer.
	4:25pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...I would say that for many bands that aren't too Punk or Pop oriented to do it - there's still often the bit where the front person(s) lay out & you let each musician have his turn - just for a few bars though - not like the olde days...well, maybe some Prog or Jam bands...It's usually not too bad - no worse than any of the other predictable conventions...Hell - if it's a good drummer, go for it...
	4:29pm ?: Jay Ferguson was memorable in Jo Jo Gunne as well..!..:)O(:..
	👻 4:30pm Ken From Hyde Park: Will 7SD be a new & live show tonight? I missed some of Ken's show this morning so I don't know if he mentioned that. I haven't received a 7SD newsletter today.
	4:31pm Jack: agreed, but it's a big "if". Saw many drum solos, including the dangerous Mr. Baker, and the Dead's Drum Things, but only Clive Bunker of Tull was a stand-out. Jo Jo Gunne! ha!
	4:32pm ccrides: About drummers...it's hard to beat Billy Cobham in 'Shabazz' live!!!...:)O(:..
	4:33pm Irwin: Clive Bunker of JT was a monster. There's an Isle of Wight clip on YT worth checking out. Astonishing technique and endurance.
	4:33pm Irwin: thanks to rrg for this track
	4:33pm ccrides: Clive was great!!!...:)O(:..
	4:36pm ccrides: Tull's live version of 'Dharma For One' off of the Carnegie Hall performance from 'Living in the Past' is one of Clive standout performances as well..!..:)O(:..
	4:39pm Jack: I will have to check these out. Thanks ccrides and Irwin. ( I forgot about Cobham; he is pretty amazing)
	4:40pm Droll: I remember 20-minute drum solos at Dead shows. Definitely a yawner. The days of Chester Thompson/Phil Collins drum duets and rotating drum platform solos are gone, and are difficult to defend in hindsight. Having said that, watching Terry Bozzio solo his zillion piece kit entertains me for over 10 minutes at a time.
	4:41pm common: just tuned in...thought this was old pete townsend.
	4:43pm ccrides: Hehehe...love this mashup!!!...:)O(:..
	4:44pm emilyhatestheworld: This twisted my brain up in the best possible way. Awesome mashup.
	4:44pm Jack: HA! I just hope Elvis and the Boss get their due royalties for this mashup!
	4:45pm Robert: I was just thinking about why I never hear classical music mashed up. The problem is that so much of the recorded stuff of that is symphonic, and so full, with no vocals, that it would be very hard to find the "space" to put them together. But I'd love to hear it.
	4:45pm fred: Check out Will Guthrie, I've seen him do very different stuff in a band as opposed to his solo sets. And, yes, he can do an interesting drum solo set lasting over 30 minutes
	4:46pm Jeff: I'm so confused.
	4:46pm rsj: that was awesome
	4:47pm Sem Chumbo: Just keep your finger on the script, like this, and you'll never be confused again.
	4:47pm Mary Wing: I knew Irwin would play one of the new Go Home Productions mashups; I just downloaded it today.
	4:47pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: When I 1st heard this drummer Zach Hill: en.wikipedia.org... - whom Marty McSorley turned me onto - & was also on FMU Live in a band name escapes me (derr) on maybe Long Rally?? - I literally thot he was a machine !
	4:49pm fred: Mi-Gu!!!
	4:51pm Irwin: MW: grab some of the Union Pole cassette DLs before I play 'em all!
	4:52pm Droll: Robert, The reason classical music does not get "mashed up" is not technical or aesthetic -- it's not "interesting". The point of a mashup is to leverage well-known songs people already want to hear -- songs that already have an audience. There's no audience for hearing two songs you don't know played at once because it doesn't violate the familiarity that makes the new context interesting. Mashups depend on using already commercial successful songs, and that's why mashups compete with the original recordings.
	👻 4:55pm rrg: There are plenty of well-known classical melodies that in theory could be mashed up entertainingly. I think I recall PDQ Bach concerts (Peter Schickele) in which things like this were attempted.
	4:56pm Jack: I think classical mashups (or jazz for that matter) could be done, it's just that nobody has done it right... yet. PDQ Bach? more like parodies.
	4:57pm listener102365: Mashups are DJs making tracks for other DJs out of existing tracks. This is the apotheosis of creativity, for a DJ.
	4:58pm ccrides: I've always thought that the main bass line from 'Close To The Edge' by Yes would make a great mashup for something???...:)O(:..
	👻 4:58pm rrg: Yes, but he also juxtaposed melodies.
	4:58pm Irwin: Droll: mashups don't "compete with the original recordings." They are an adaptation, a reconfiguration. No permanent damage is done. In fact, I've been introduced to a number of previously unknown (to me) songs thru mashes. It's one more avenue of exposure for the original artists, and fun for the listener. As well criticize Carl Stalling for using Raymond Scott, Mozart and Puccini in WB cartoon scores. A trivialization, right? Sacrilege!
	5:00pm Jack: it's funny; some people are really outraged and offended by mashups, and others (like me) love them. I think they show great ingenuity and creativity, when done right.
	5:02pm Walt: I just started listing in the past six weeks or so. Thanks so much for the "Tomorrow Never Knows" cover, I usually can't listen live but I am home today after minor surgery, now I think I will remember hearing this song as the most notable event of the day.
	5:02pm P-90: @Droll: OK but "commercially successful" or not, listeners "hear" pop songs differently than "classical" music. Familiar or not, there are reasons why pop tunes make entertaining mash-ups while other kinds of music don't. rrg's PDQ Bach example is to this point: when he does it with "familiar", "commercially successful" classical melodies, it's a novelty that's entertaining and funny in passing. But that's a very limited thing compared to pop song mash-ups.
	5:03pm Laura L: here you go--Adnate --biology : grown together — used especially of unlike parts <a coral zooid adnate to the stem> <a calyx adnate to the ovary> — compare connate 2 biology : growing with one side adherent to a stem <an adnate anther> First Known Use: 1661 (sense 1)
	5:04pm Robert: Droll, there are so many familiar classical tunes that lack of familiarity could not be a reason for the lack of their being mashed up.
	5:05pm Mary Wing: "Night of the Dark Soul," heh! Good one, Irwin!
	5:06pm gurn blamsen: max Richter's four seasons recomposed comes to mind as a serious attempt at classical remix/rearrangement. not quite a mashup.
	5:07pm Droll: I can't help but notice nobody is debating my central argument that mashups are unauthorized use of copyrighted material (read: theft). My opinions of who makes the most creative mashups or which mashups rise to "transformative" are irrelevant. I'll bet none of the people defending mashups will walk into a record store and brag while they shoplift CDs or LPs. They won't do it with a "but I like it a lot" defense, and that's why their argument about doing it electronically rings hollow with me.
	5:07pm fred: I know where I can download Mi-Gu's record, but does anyone know where I could buy it? (in that the money would go to the one who made it)
	5:08pm Jack: So when Irwin played "Third Stone from the Sun" and overdubbed Amanda, was that a "mashup"? It sure was funny.
	5:09pm Irwin: I answered your "central argument" last week, Droll. It is not "unauthorized use of copyrighted material" because there is no commercial intent. What you choose to do with copyrighted material in the privacy of your own home or recording studio is your business. You want the government intervening? Is that your argument -- make it against the law, a crime?
	5:09pm listener102365: How 'bout Cantelope Island merged with Patches by Clarence Carter?
	5:09pm Robert: What you'd need is one piece that's droney, like typical bagpipe music, and another that's sort of chamber music-y. Schickele got the idea down with his "Ground Round", but somebody needs to do it with already recorded existing pieces.
	5:09pm fred: How I miss Bimbo Tower!!!
	5:10pm Jack: Hey Droll! Most of my vinyl record collection, hundreds of records, I stole. Yeah, I'm bragging about it. I ripped of the Record Club of America dozens of times! And, I illegally download music ALL the time. That's right!
	5:12pm P-90: @Droll: Q: If one makes a mash-up of two recorded songs and circulates it for free, without commercial purpose, is that still equivalent to "shoplifting"?
	5:12pm ccrides: It's like free publicity for an artist...most of who should feel flattered by the attention!!!...:)O(:..
	5:12pm Mary Wing: Fred, you can buy Mi-Gu's album on CD or vinyl at Chimera Music: chimeramusic.com...
	5:13pm Robert: I think I answered Droll or someone else on Ange's comments as well. It is possible to do actual piracy with mash-ups, but it is also possible to use the original material according to license while mashing it up. The ownership issue is separate from the style issue.
	👻 5:14pm SeanG: Copyright is over if you want it--Kenny G!!
	5:15pm fleep: As long as it violates my familiarity, I don't care.
	👻 5:16pm SeanG: www.billboard.com...
	5:17pm Irwin: Droll, I hope you don't consider my Dan Tullis + Joel Clark remixes "theft of copyrighted material," the "equivalent of shoplifting." You OK with those?
	👻 5:17pm Alison Porchnik: @fleep - that's the best use of the word "violates" that I've ever read.
	5:17pm common: im with you, fleep.
	5:18pm Jack: If an artist got a larger percentage of the profits, I might be more inclined to legally purchase their product. But I morally and ethically object to paying for Clive Davis' ( and the other record company weasels) for their cocaine and teenage hookers.
	5:19pm listener102365: So does Don Henley have a case against Frank Ocean & Okkervil River? The claimed no sale = no foul.
	5:19pm listener102365: They
	5:20pm P-90: OUCH! Valid point but why single out poor Clive Davis by name?
	5:21pm Droll: Jack, You must be very proud of yourself. Who else do you steal from? Or do you just single out musicians? P-90, You already know the answer to that: Theft does not depend on wether you keep the stolen property, give it away, or you sell it. Irwin, As far as I can tell, the Tullis & Clark songs don't really compete with an insurance company.
	5:21pm P-90: ...and teenage hookers gotta eat too, right?
	5:22pm Irwin: Droll: You going to address my answer to your "central argument"? You want Congress and cops to enforce copyright laws against mashup artists? Because that's where you're going with your argument.
	5:23pm ccrides: About 'Familiarity'...with music...mmmm...I usually close my eyes, and if it sounds groovy...I dig 'it' right away...whether I've ever heard it before, or not..!..eh???...:)O(:..
	5:23pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Perhaps Droll you should dialogue w/ Jason Sigal of WFMU's FreeMusicArchive & Grey Area podcast about these very issues. ...Myself - I never got a career & I'm frankly Working Poor - & it inclines me to favor as much free access as I can get my greedy mitts on - altho' I've also been close enuff to Musicians to sympathize w/ their position - & it is true they get ripped right & left. Irwin sounds knowledgeable about mash-ups to me...
	👻 5:24pm rrg: Irwin, did you get the Grace London CD from Brian Beattie?
	5:26pm glenn: everybody's second favourite william bell tune.
	5:26pm Irwin: rrg: not yet.
	5:27pm Jack: I am very proud of myself, Droll, but you don't really know me, so you don't know why. Whom I decide to steal from is a big long list, too big to print here. But don't you worry; your name isn't on that list.
	5:28pm Robert: Sometimes corporate lawyers are idiots about their intellectual property. Parker Bros.' successor complained about a certain hotel's advertising a Monopoly tournament as such, so they changed the name of it to a Monotony tournament. It's bizarre because it's great publicity for Monopoly and requires the purchase of their actual product to play the tournament, which means I also think legally they'd lose based on extinction of trademark claim with the purchase, but it just shows how silly the lawyers get, basically to justify their jobs.
	5:28pm ccrides: Freddie nailed 'it'..!..hehehe...:)O(:
	5:31pm Droll: Irwin, Enforcing copyright of digital files in the 21st century is technically impossible -- I referred to it last week as "whack-a-mole". I treat this a social problem where stealing from musicians is considered something we're supposed to argue over. Any theory used to defend stealing from musicians can be also applied to grocers, but nobody here is saying "I love food, and I'm not going to pay for it!" I am trying to remind people of the hypocrisy of singling out musicians.
	5:33pm glenn: i gotta agree with droll. it's pretty much wage theft.
	5:33pm Robert: The person who's done the most "demonstration" I know of for the laissez faire side in intellectual property is Craig Baldwin. Not sure he's the best at arguing his case, but it's fun anyway.
	5:33pm ccrides: You can't copyright 'evolution'..!..think about 'it'...'it's deep!!!!...LOL...:)O(:..
	5:33pm Irwin: Stealing food from a neighborhood grocery is morally equivalent to creating a mashup? OK, Droll. You win.
	5:34pm Eric: Food is a physical object with a finite quantity, music is not any more. If you don't want anyone to get your music for free then don't record it.
	5:34pm P-90: Droll: With all due respect, groceries are fungible commodities that are bought/sold in a different kind of economy than digital files. It's apples & oranges, or apples & mp3's
	5:34pm fleep: Like there's no pirate movies? Like YouTube isn't awash with pirate TV episodes, some of them flipped and audio altered to avoid copyright? Pirated books? It's all media. Somewhere along the line the Internet convinced us media is free.
	👻 5:35pm rrg: Jane Siberry got more than a little flaky later on, but...never mind. I really do like her stuff, especially this earlier stuff. I should play it more. We all should.
	5:35pm Jack: Dude, when I was really poor I stole food too. I'm not singling out anybody. I used to steal toilet paper from my employer, a big multi-national company. And yet, unsurprisingly, I am able to sleep easily every night. I hope that doesn't disturb you too much.
	5:36pm Robert: I admit that the revenue of creators of non-rivalrous goods that can easily be copied has been reduced by unauthorized copying, but that doesn't mean I'm against if in all cases.
	5:36pm ccrides: Seems like I heard something about...mmmm...anything floating around in the 'air' was fair game and up there for the grabbing...for any'one' who could grasp 'it'???...hahaha...:)O(:..
	5:36pm P-90: @Robert: See also Lawrence Lessig's extensive explorations of the nature and value of "intellectual commons."
	5:37pm Jack: Droll, read up about Emmett Grogan and the Diggers.
	5:37pm Irwin: To Droll, Jack, fleep, etc: I'm not condoning theft. I'm saying that mashups made by hobbyists are NOT theft. The originals still exist, no one is taking them away from their lawful owners.
	5:37pm fred: @Mary: many thanks for the link. I don't have a phone, so I now have to wait a few days for approval, but I should get that record eventually, I hope
	5:40pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...there was also a Musician's Advocate interviewed some months ago on Michael Shelley's about Corporations trying to weasel out of paying Performance Rights or such. The argument was made that people always say they're helping the Artist by promoting them - & nobody ever wants to pay!...but it doesn't help if I know no specifics here...There, Jason countered that if applied to a non-commercial station like FMU, it'd be stuck playing only stuff on the FreeMusicArchive, & should be aimed @ the Big Corporations...Does seem to me that it's not FMU - whatever it plays - that wants to cheat artists out of all the filthy luchre it (doesn't) make(s)...
	5:40pm Robert: Yeah, but Lawrence Lessig's not as funny as Craig Baldwin.
	5:40pm Jack: Irwin, Droll is the only one here talking about "theft". He introduced that word and concept into the conversation. Maybe because I'm not a lawyer I don't understand who is being wronged, in his eyes.
	5:42pm P-90: @Jack: me neither, because he hasn't yet made it clear who"s being wronged
	5:43pm ccrides: Mmmm...kinda reminds me of Emmit Rhoades!!!...:)O(:..
	👻 5:44pm rrg: Who always reminded me of...I forget now.
	5:45pm Droll: P-90 and Jack, If instead of electronic files you went into a record store and walked out the door with a bunch of CDs without paying for them, are you still unsure who, if anyone, has been "wronged"?
	5:45pm Jack: "Poor" Clive Davis? I'm cutting into his personal profits, hurting him? because I download an WFMU archive that plays Aretha Franklin, and I burn it to CD and give (or sell) it to a friend. Poor poor Mr. Davis, no coke tonight Clive.
	5:46pm ccrides: rrg...Paulie, of course!!!...:)O(:..
	👻 5:46pm rrg: Of course!
	5:47pm Jack: Droll, I told you upthread I used to do that, steal records and CD's. Usually from big record chains. Do you know the concept "inventory shrinkage"?
	5:48pm fred: Yeah, it's theft. When Universal doesn't have a clue about more than 50% of what they have. Really. They will only check it if someone uses it, just in case it's in their portfolio. The reason I know this is a sliver of hope: they want to know what they have, and they're growing tired of litigation as a business model
	5:49pm Jack: and P-90. I don't just single out Clive Davis; sometimes I single out Paul McCartney.
	5:49pm bobdoesthings: it also seems to me the industry is shifting to a "you don't own anything.. pay this subscription and stream! store it on OUR cloud and we'll hold it for you" business model.. what's the difference of people listening to full albums on youtube?
	5:50pm ccrides: Great show Irwin...Cheerz bud!!!...:)O(:..
	5:50pm Laura L: Wonder if "transformative" use would come into play if there were a court case regarding mash-ups. It is relevant to physical art made by people like Jeff Koons...
	5:50pm P-90: @ Jack; I betcha Clive understands exactly why you might download a song from WFMU's non-profit archive for personal use (selling it's a different case). I don't think Clive would think it fair to associate him specifically and gratuitously with "cocaine and teenage hookers" in a casual chat about the record-industry profiting from musicians' work.
	5:51pm Robert: I'll give an example from my own practice. Licensing terms for software are so ridiculous, nobody expects people to pay att'n to them. So, for instance, when a friend had a computer game, and was playing it with me every time he played it, I installed it on my computer, although it was also on his. We never had 2 games of it going at the same time, so I thought it was keeping in the spirit of the copyright. Once he told me he was going to play his copy solo at home, I deleted my copy (after I finished my own solo game).
	5:52pm Irwin: Jerry Goodman of Mahavishnu on electric violin.
	5:54pm Robert: My friend thought I was silly to delete my copy, but my friend is a writer who sells some of what he writes and does not appreciate being pirated for $. OTOH, he has used some graphics of others without authoriz'n in his writings that he sells, so a bit of hypocrisy there, especially since he did seek & get authoriz'n from SOME of his sources.
	5:55pm fleep: Balloon dogs are in the public domain, I think.
	5:55pm fred: Often with small-scale software you can contact the copyright owner and find a deal, beer being an acceptable currency. That model doesn't scale though, and if Apple gets in the way you're screwed, but in a holy way
	5:55pm listener102365: Robert: You could hide the entire text of Mein Kampf within an EULA and nobody would be the wiser.
	5:56pm P-90: @Robert: That raises an key point about "digital age ethics": that showing that kind of respect for "ownership" of digital creations is inescapably a voluntary act. It's unregulatable and unenforcable by the State.
	5:56pm Jack: my point was (maybe poorly expressed) was that the suits in the industry get a disproportionate share of the profits of an artists work, and I don't mind at all ripping them off. The artists have already been ripped off by the record company weasels. And if all the many many artists that Mr. Clive Davis produced were as wealthy as he is, I wouldn't point to him AS AN EXAMPLE. Robert, don't get me started about software. I had my first computer in 1980 and I have NEVER bought software. Droll, I'm proud of that! Poor poor Mr. Bill Gates.
	👻 5:56pm rrg: A fine program. Thanks, Mr. Host, and catch you later, Accu-Playlist chums.
	5:56pm Irwin: Flock dedicated to Clay Pigeon, fan of 1st-gen rock bands that featured horn sections.
	👻 5:57pm rrg: Perhaps the new CMS being developed won't use the term "Accu-Playlist". That will be fine with me.
	5:57pm Jack: I saw the Flock with The Who, 1970.
	5:57pm bobdoesthings: thanks irwin.
	5:58pm Sem Chumbo: Thanks for the conversation about mash-ups, thoughtful insights. Much appreciated, all. Thanks for hosting, Irwin.
	5:58pm P-90: Too few bands these days with horn sections. THANKS DJ Irwin!
	5:58pm Robert: A lot of the problem is coordination. It can be insuperable to track down the copyright holders for a lot of old stuff to get authoriz'n, so you take a guess -- usually a good one -- that they wouldn't mind.
	6:00pm Jack: P-90! Read Clive Davis biography. Might change your mind!
	6:00pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: I do believe it's true that the Music is now owned by a bunch of Businessmen & Lawyers who don't know a thing about Artists or Music, the Audience, or Technology - whereas in the years of the Cultural Revolution - we were an expanding Market & they were in a rush to pander to us - now we are nothing...It's not just Music - but also oil riggs inthe Gulf, recalled cars that are crap, our Electoral Process & our Democracy...ho hum...
	6:01pm Jack: Hey Rabbitt! mind yer posting, Ken's counting your comments!
	6:03pm Robert: Jack, is Ken quota-minded?
	6:06pm Jack: Robert, Ken had an issue with RRN63 posting too much.
	6:08pm Robert: He knocked me off this AM. I do tend to go off on a tangent & go on & on.
	6:10pm Robert: In that case I was going on & on about naming the performance space, and then I started going on about the general practice of naming things for past things.
	6:12pm Robert: I hadn't realized the graphic he put up was from a vote taken by the actual attendees at the official inaugur'n of the room. I can imagine he was sick of the issue by this AM's program.
	6:12pm Jack: Yeah, you gotta watch that. I think someone bitched about RRN63, which is why Ken reacted. But I've seen other posters comment A LOT more. Usually the Rabbit has something interesting to say. Just try not to offend anyone, especially the DJ.
	6:13pm Jack: And don't post comments in a row. Space them out, if you can.
	6:15pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: I didn't start the fire, Billy Joel fans ! ...But I apologize if contributing to bum-rushing Irwin's comments here: It's totally legit for the DJ to define what is On-Topic or Off.
	6:19pm Robert: Oh, darn...I'm a genius at offending people unintentionally and/or in a different spirit from how it's taken. Also, I'm critical. I don't consider it "hating".
	6:20pm Robert: Irwin has said he doesn't even pay att'n to the comments, nor does he care if the people commenting are even listening. Today he obviously paid att'n to the comments.
	6:21pm Jack: I was just kidding you, man. I never wrote you back after you were kind enough to let me know what had happened to you, in re: Ken and comments. But - as you've seen - I'm not the only one to notice your absence, and a lot of people have commented that they're glad you're back. You really do add to a conversation; you make good comments, sometimes funny. You have a unique viewpoint that I (and others obviously) like. So again, welcome back. Just don't rile Ken up.
	6:23pm Jack: Robert, I was surprised that Irwin was responding to comments today, I love that man. Plus Droll was pushing some of Irwin's buttons, from last week even.
	6:25pm Jack: Critical is good, in my book. Means you think for yourself, usually.
	6:25pm Robert: But there have been times I've been mean to DJs in the comments. One time Scott Williams made himself too easy a target with his daughter not behaving well on-air. It was just too juicy to not ha-ha at that easy setup, even though I feel sympathy for people who take their children to public spaces (never know when you might have no reasonable choice) and then the kid's got them over a barrel by the leverage provided by acting up. Another time I made fun of an unflattering photo Terre put up of a band. She didn't appreciate that, but then I noticed she got someone else to take band pictures subsequently. So I feel my criticism was constructive.
	6:29pm Jack: Well, tread carefully my friend. I personally don't mind offending other listeners or commenters, particularly if they're assholes, but NEVER piss off the DJ to whose show you're listening to. They do have the power to remove you from the board.
	6:33pm Robert: They have the power, but I treat them as equals in the comments. I took Ken's deletion of my comments this AM as a gag in itself, esp. since it was predicted by another commenter. I don't mind being the butt of a gag.
	6:36pm Robert: What I would NOT do is criticize a DJ in ANOTHER DJ's comment thread. I think it's manlier to do it in their own presence.

Irwin Chusid: Playlist from July 16, 2014

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Genre-surfing tokenism. (Visit homepage.)

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July 16, 2014: A firm believer in peace as a last resort.

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Artist	Track	Album	Approx. start time
Lee Morgan	Yes I Can, No You Can't (edit)	The Gigolo	0:00:00 (Pop-up)
Screamfeeder	Tomorrow Never Knows	Home Age	0:04:11 (Pop-up)
Pampers	Monkey Drip "Monkey Drip" by "Pampers"	Pampers	0:10:38 (Pop-up)
Badbadnotgood	Triangle "Triangle" by "Badbadnotgood"	III	0:13:35 (Pop-up)
Sol Mogerman	Introduction / Wishbone Bridge / Listen to the Wind / Fire Engines	Wishbone Bridge 1971-1972	0:17:27 (Pop-up)
Tony Green Orchestra	I Didn't Love You Anyway	Got Conjugal Visits	0:22:00 (Pop-up)

Glass Eye	Boring Story "Boring Story" by "Glass Eye"	Every Woman's Fantasy	0:28:47 (Pop-up)
Weird Al Yankovic	Word Crimes "Word Crimes" by "Weird Al Yankovic"	Mandatory Fun	0:32:43 (Pop-up)
Gary McFarland	Wine and Bread "Wine and Bread" by "Gary McFarland"	Latin Lounge	0:36:47 (Pop-up)
Pietra Montecorvino	Comme Facette Mammeta	Passione: Un' Avventura Musicale (film soundtrack)	0:39:35 (Pop-up)
Ray Bryant	Cubano Chant "Cubano Chant" by "Ray Bryant"	Django	0:41:53 (Pop-up)

Chris Cohen	Caller No.99 "Caller No.99" by "Chris Cohen"	Overgrown Path	0:51:56 (Pop-up)
Tabby Thomas	Hoodoo Party "Hoodoo Party" by "Tabby Thomas"	Louisiana Hoodoo Party: House Rockin' & Hip Shakin', Vol. 2	0:55:10 (Pop-up)
Spirit	Aren't You Glad "Aren't You Glad" by "Spirit"	The Family That Plays Together	0:57:56 (Pop-up)
Courtney Barnett	Scotty Says "Scotty Says" by "Courtney Barnett"	The Double EP: A Sea of Split Peas	1:03:24 (Pop-up)
The Rainmakers	Nobody Knows "Nobody Knows" by "The Rainmakers"	The Rainmakers	1:06:53 (Pop-up)
The Clientele	Jerry "Jerry" by "The Clientele"	Minotaur	1:10:19 (Pop-up)
Superhuman Happiness	Surrender Pt. 2	The Physical EP	1:14:18 (Pop-up)

Orenda Fink	Nebraska "Nebraska" by "Orenda Fink"	Blue Dream	1:26:26 (Pop-up)
Lennon Stella	I Can't Sleep Tonight	I Can't Sleep Tonight (single)	1:29:52 (Pop-up)
Doug Gillard	Come Out and Show Me	Parade On	1:32:54 (Pop-up)
The Boss vs. Elvis	Born to Pump It Up	Go Home Productions: Spliced Krispies Vol. 2	1:39:59 (Pop-up)
The Dagons	Not Enough "Not Enough" by "The Dagons"	Reverse	1:43:54 (Pop-up)
Mi-Gu	From Space "From Space" by "Mi-Gu"	Choose the Light	1:45:20 (Pop-up)
Annette Peacock	We Are Adnate "We Are Adnate" by "Annette Peacock"	Abstract-Contact	1:50:27 (Pop-up)

Trinidad Bill (Trotman)	Monkey See, Monkey Do	Hardness is Badness	2:04:09 (Pop-up)
Apache Dropout	Constant Plaything	Garage Swim (comp)	2:09:26 (Pop-up)
Vermillion Sands	Monsoon Blues "Monsoon Blues" by "Vermillion Sands"	Vermillion Sands	2:13:54 (Pop-up)
Freddie Hubbard	Coral Keys "Coral Keys" by "Freddie Hubbard"	Soul Bossa Nova (comp)	2:16:58 (Pop-up)
William Bell	Private Number "Private Number" by "William Bell"	The Very Best of William Bell	2:22:05 (Pop-up)

Jane Siberry	The Strange Well "The Strange Well" by "Jane Siberry"	Jane Siberry	2:29:34 (Pop-up)
The Clientele	I Hope I Know You "I Hope I Know You" by "The Clientele"	God Save the Clientele	2:34:18 (Pop-up)
Murals	This Year's House "This Year's House" by "Murals"	On a Passing Cloud	2:37:48 (Pop-up)
Gabriel Kahane	Slumlord Crocodile (115 E. 3rd Street)	The Ambassador	2:40:15 (Pop-up)

The Flock	Clown "Clown" by "The Flock"	The Flock	2:47:56 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	👻 3:06pm rrg: Why do you get stuck doing the EAS test all the time?
	3:09pm Irwin: Because I'm one of the few adults on staff.
	3:09pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...801, Danielle Dax, Screamfeeder - &?...
	3:09pm northguineahills: Seriously, 2/3rds of the time I hear it on WFMU, it's Irwin.
	3:09pm P-90: But he's got a WAY with the EAS test! Hi Irwin and all Chusidiots!
	👻 3:09pm rrg: Doesn't seniority count for anything?
	3:09pm Listening Out There: "Screamfeeder" would also be a great name for an RSS reader.
	3:10pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: - besides - EAS & TNKs - it just works...
	3:13pm Mike East: P-90 FTW with "Chusidiots".. Brilliant
	👻 3:15pm SeanG: awesome song
	3:17pm k beach: 2 wicked songsss bak2bak
	3:30pm berbo: Should I take the pizza, or what's behind the curtain?
	👻 3:31pm rrg: If Monty offers you a chance to switch, take it.
	3:31pm Laura L: Peace as a last resort... will there be a golf course and tennis courts?
	3:31pm Michael: Does Monty have pints of John Courage like the old Maxwell's did?
	3:32pm Irwin: The runner-up name was Ruth's Chris Monty Hall.
	3:32pm P-90: There actually was some good beer at Monty the other night...
	3:34pm P-90: I think "Famous Original Ruth's Chris Maxwell's Monty Hall" was in the mix somewhere too...
	3:35pm Mike East: I just now got it...cuz its on Montgomery Street.
	3:36pm Mike East: This weird al song stuck in my head all day yesterday and into this morning.
	3:36pm P-90: ding!
	3:36pm MikeY: Weird AL Love it
	3:36pm Whosondephone: I can't believe it!
	3:36pm Whosondephone: THUMBS UP!
	3:37pm natch!: no x in espresso. weird genius
	3:37pm berbo: Weird Al for Sec. Ed.
	3:38pm fred: video there: youtu.be...
	3:38pm PKNY: I'd rather hear Weird Al rap than 99.9% of the rappers out today.
	3:38pm Roberto: "Incohairent"
	3:39pm GeesyCreesy: I'm so pleased with this and his parody of Pharrell's "Happy".
	3:40pm P-90: "Tacky" IS brilliant too
	3:42pm natch!: just googled "eclectic" and Irwin's picture appeared
	3:42pm fred: I'm an unofficial copy editor at work, meaning that I volunteer to read and correct paper drafts, so this Weird Al track is close to my heart
	👻 3:43pm rrg: We have at least one other (former) copy editor among us today.
	3:47pm Sem Chumbo: At least.
	3:50pm fleep: Django itunes.apple.com...
	3:55pm Irwin: Doesn't appear on his wiki discog: en.wikipedia.org... Probably a comp. Great pianist. Thanks, fleeper.
	3:56pm Laura L: Former managing editor here, but I'm not going to ask Irwin to change the hyphen to an en-dash between the dates in the Sol Mogerman Album entry.
	3:58pm holland oats: their's no chance he would any way
	3:58pm Irwin: Not sure of en-dash keystrokes on a non-Mac keyboard.
	4:01pm Jack: I love that you play Spirit.
	4:01pm natch!: alt-0150
	4:02pm Irwin: I love the droning guitar of Randy California.
	4:03pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...huh; I'll bookmark this: english.stackexchange.com... - to read prolly when hell freezes over...for which I'll passively rely on Irwin's ESA...
	4:04pm Irwin: Hate Cassidy's clumsy drums on all Spirit recordings.
	4:05pm Alison Porchnik: you can't choose your family, as they say.
	4:06pm Jack: huh. I thought Cassidy's (jazz influenced) drumming helped make their unique sound. And yes, love California's guitar. Beautiful, those endless one note drones.
	4:07pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: - after all, named 'California' by Jimi Hendrix in Greenwich Village - anyone didn't know...
	4:08pm Irwin: Cassidy might've been good jazz drummer, but he's a ham-fisted rock drummer. His solo on "It's All the Same" might be the least-interesting recorded drum solo on a major label release.
	4:13pm Jack: That's a fact, and in concert as well. Huge drum set, but boring drum solo. Almost "Inna-gadda-da-vida" bad.
	4:14pm fred: Good that you hedged by adding "major label" there. I could have thought of way too many challengers otherwise. But there are good drummers around today. I'd love to see one live (there's nothing going on here these days)
	4:14pm ?: Good, 'clean it all up & purge' music!!
	4:20pm Jack: I don't get out much these days to see live music, but do drummers take long solos anymore? It was de rigueur for most 60's and early 70's shows. And mostly boring. Well, I'm not a drummer.
	4:25pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...I would say that for many bands that aren't too Punk or Pop oriented to do it - there's still often the bit where the front person(s) lay out & you let each musician have his turn - just for a few bars though - not like the olde days...well, maybe some Prog or Jam bands...It's usually not too bad - no worse than any of the other predictable conventions...Hell - if it's a good drummer, go for it...
	4:29pm ?: Jay Ferguson was memorable in Jo Jo Gunne as well..!..:)O(:..
	👻 4:30pm Ken From Hyde Park: Will 7SD be a new & live show tonight? I missed some of Ken's show this morning so I don't know if he mentioned that. I haven't received a 7SD newsletter today.
	4:31pm Jack: agreed, but it's a big "if". Saw many drum solos, including the dangerous Mr. Baker, and the Dead's Drum Things, but only Clive Bunker of Tull was a stand-out. Jo Jo Gunne! ha!
	4:32pm ccrides: About drummers...it's hard to beat Billy Cobham in 'Shabazz' live!!!...:)O(:..
	4:33pm Irwin: Clive Bunker of JT was a monster. There's an Isle of Wight clip on YT worth checking out. Astonishing technique and endurance.
	4:33pm Irwin: thanks to rrg for this track
	4:33pm ccrides: Clive was great!!!...:)O(:..
	4:36pm ccrides: Tull's live version of 'Dharma For One' off of the Carnegie Hall performance from 'Living in the Past' is one of Clive standout performances as well..!..:)O(:..
	4:39pm Jack: I will have to check these out. Thanks ccrides and Irwin. ( I forgot about Cobham; he is pretty amazing)
	4:40pm Droll: I remember 20-minute drum solos at Dead shows. Definitely a yawner. The days of Chester Thompson/Phil Collins drum duets and rotating drum platform solos are gone, and are difficult to defend in hindsight. Having said that, watching Terry Bozzio solo his zillion piece kit entertains me for over 10 minutes at a time.
	4:41pm common: just tuned in...thought this was old pete townsend.
	4:43pm ccrides: Hehehe...love this mashup!!!...:)O(:..
	4:44pm emilyhatestheworld: This twisted my brain up in the best possible way. Awesome mashup.
	4:44pm Jack: HA! I just hope Elvis and the Boss get their due royalties for this mashup!
	4:45pm Robert: I was just thinking about why I never hear classical music mashed up. The problem is that so much of the recorded stuff of that is symphonic, and so full, with no vocals, that it would be very hard to find the "space" to put them together. But I'd love to hear it.
	4:45pm fred: Check out Will Guthrie, I've seen him do very different stuff in a band as opposed to his solo sets. And, yes, he can do an interesting drum solo set lasting over 30 minutes
	4:46pm Jeff: I'm so confused.
	4:46pm rsj: that was awesome
	4:47pm Sem Chumbo: Just keep your finger on the script, like this, and you'll never be confused again.
	4:47pm Mary Wing: I knew Irwin would play one of the new Go Home Productions mashups; I just downloaded it today.
	4:47pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: When I 1st heard this drummer Zach Hill: en.wikipedia.org... - whom Marty McSorley turned me onto - & was also on FMU Live in a band name escapes me (derr) on maybe Long Rally?? - I literally thot he was a machine !
	4:49pm fred: Mi-Gu!!!
	4:51pm Irwin: MW: grab some of the Union Pole cassette DLs before I play 'em all!
	4:52pm Droll: Robert, The reason classical music does not get "mashed up" is not technical or aesthetic -- it's not "interesting". The point of a mashup is to leverage well-known songs people already want to hear -- songs that already have an audience. There's no audience for hearing two songs you don't know played at once because it doesn't violate the familiarity that makes the new context interesting. Mashups depend on using already commercial successful songs, and that's why mashups compete with the original recordings.
	👻 4:55pm rrg: There are plenty of well-known classical melodies that in theory could be mashed up entertainingly. I think I recall PDQ Bach concerts (Peter Schickele) in which things like this were attempted.
	4:56pm Jack: I think classical mashups (or jazz for that matter) could be done, it's just that nobody has done it right... yet. PDQ Bach? more like parodies.
	4:57pm listener102365: Mashups are DJs making tracks for other DJs out of existing tracks. This is the apotheosis of creativity, for a DJ.
	4:58pm ccrides: I've always thought that the main bass line from 'Close To The Edge' by Yes would make a great mashup for something???...:)O(:..
	👻 4:58pm rrg: Yes, but he also juxtaposed melodies.
	4:58pm Irwin: Droll: mashups don't "compete with the original recordings." They are an adaptation, a reconfiguration. No permanent damage is done. In fact, I've been introduced to a number of previously unknown (to me) songs thru mashes. It's one more avenue of exposure for the original artists, and fun for the listener. As well criticize Carl Stalling for using Raymond Scott, Mozart and Puccini in WB cartoon scores. A trivialization, right? Sacrilege!
	5:00pm Jack: it's funny; some people are really outraged and offended by mashups, and others (like me) love them. I think they show great ingenuity and creativity, when done right.
	5:02pm Walt: I just started listing in the past six weeks or so. Thanks so much for the "Tomorrow Never Knows" cover, I usually can't listen live but I am home today after minor surgery, now I think I will remember hearing this song as the most notable event of the day.
	5:02pm P-90: @Droll: OK but "commercially successful" or not, listeners "hear" pop songs differently than "classical" music. Familiar or not, there are reasons why pop tunes make entertaining mash-ups while other kinds of music don't. rrg's PDQ Bach example is to this point: when he does it with "familiar", "commercially successful" classical melodies, it's a novelty that's entertaining and funny in passing. But that's a very limited thing compared to pop song mash-ups.
	5:03pm Laura L: here you go--Adnate --biology : grown together — used especially of unlike parts <a coral zooid adnate to the stem> <a calyx adnate to the ovary> — compare connate 2 biology : growing with one side adherent to a stem <an adnate anther> First Known Use: 1661 (sense 1)
	5:04pm Robert: Droll, there are so many familiar classical tunes that lack of familiarity could not be a reason for the lack of their being mashed up.
	5:05pm Mary Wing: "Night of the Dark Soul," heh! Good one, Irwin!
	5:06pm gurn blamsen: max Richter's four seasons recomposed comes to mind as a serious attempt at classical remix/rearrangement. not quite a mashup.
	5:07pm Droll: I can't help but notice nobody is debating my central argument that mashups are unauthorized use of copyrighted material (read: theft). My opinions of who makes the most creative mashups or which mashups rise to "transformative" are irrelevant. I'll bet none of the people defending mashups will walk into a record store and brag while they shoplift CDs or LPs. They won't do it with a "but I like it a lot" defense, and that's why their argument about doing it electronically rings hollow with me.
	5:07pm fred: I know where I can download Mi-Gu's record, but does anyone know where I could buy it? (in that the money would go to the one who made it)
	5:08pm Jack: So when Irwin played "Third Stone from the Sun" and overdubbed Amanda, was that a "mashup"? It sure was funny.
	5:09pm Irwin: I answered your "central argument" last week, Droll. It is not "unauthorized use of copyrighted material" because there is no commercial intent. What you choose to do with copyrighted material in the privacy of your own home or recording studio is your business. You want the government intervening? Is that your argument -- make it against the law, a crime?
	5:09pm listener102365: How 'bout Cantelope Island merged with Patches by Clarence Carter?
	5:09pm Robert: What you'd need is one piece that's droney, like typical bagpipe music, and another that's sort of chamber music-y. Schickele got the idea down with his "Ground Round", but somebody needs to do it with already recorded existing pieces.
	5:09pm fred: How I miss Bimbo Tower!!!
	5:10pm Jack: Hey Droll! Most of my vinyl record collection, hundreds of records, I stole. Yeah, I'm bragging about it. I ripped of the Record Club of America dozens of times! And, I illegally download music ALL the time. That's right!
	5:12pm P-90: @Droll: Q: If one makes a mash-up of two recorded songs and circulates it for free, without commercial purpose, is that still equivalent to "shoplifting"?
	5:12pm ccrides: It's like free publicity for an artist...most of who should feel flattered by the attention!!!...:)O(:..
	5:12pm Mary Wing: Fred, you can buy Mi-Gu's album on CD or vinyl at Chimera Music: chimeramusic.com...
	5:13pm Robert: I think I answered Droll or someone else on Ange's comments as well. It is possible to do actual piracy with mash-ups, but it is also possible to use the original material according to license while mashing it up. The ownership issue is separate from the style issue.
	👻 5:14pm SeanG: Copyright is over if you want it--Kenny G!!
	5:15pm fleep: As long as it violates my familiarity, I don't care.
	👻 5:16pm SeanG: www.billboard.com...
	5:17pm Irwin: Droll, I hope you don't consider my Dan Tullis + Joel Clark remixes "theft of copyrighted material," the "equivalent of shoplifting." You OK with those?
	👻 5:17pm Alison Porchnik: @fleep - that's the best use of the word "violates" that I've ever read.
	5:17pm common: im with you, fleep.
	5:18pm Jack: If an artist got a larger percentage of the profits, I might be more inclined to legally purchase their product. But I morally and ethically object to paying for Clive Davis' ( and the other record company weasels) for their cocaine and teenage hookers.
	5:19pm listener102365: So does Don Henley have a case against Frank Ocean & Okkervil River? The claimed no sale = no foul.
	5:19pm listener102365: They
	5:20pm P-90: OUCH! Valid point but why single out poor Clive Davis by name?
	5:21pm Droll: Jack, You must be very proud of yourself. Who else do you steal from? Or do you just single out musicians? P-90, You already know the answer to that: Theft does not depend on wether you keep the stolen property, give it away, or you sell it. Irwin, As far as I can tell, the Tullis & Clark songs don't really compete with an insurance company.
	5:21pm P-90: ...and teenage hookers gotta eat too, right?
	5:22pm Irwin: Droll: You going to address my answer to your "central argument"? You want Congress and cops to enforce copyright laws against mashup artists? Because that's where you're going with your argument.
	5:23pm ccrides: About 'Familiarity'...with music...mmmm...I usually close my eyes, and if it sounds groovy...I dig 'it' right away...whether I've ever heard it before, or not..!..eh???...:)O(:..
	5:23pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: Perhaps Droll you should dialogue w/ Jason Sigal of WFMU's FreeMusicArchive & Grey Area podcast about these very issues. ...Myself - I never got a career & I'm frankly Working Poor - & it inclines me to favor as much free access as I can get my greedy mitts on - altho' I've also been close enuff to Musicians to sympathize w/ their position - & it is true they get ripped right & left. Irwin sounds knowledgeable about mash-ups to me...
	👻 5:24pm rrg: Irwin, did you get the Grace London CD from Brian Beattie?
	5:26pm glenn: everybody's second favourite william bell tune.
	5:26pm Irwin: rrg: not yet.
	5:27pm Jack: I am very proud of myself, Droll, but you don't really know me, so you don't know why. Whom I decide to steal from is a big long list, too big to print here. But don't you worry; your name isn't on that list.
	5:28pm Robert: Sometimes corporate lawyers are idiots about their intellectual property. Parker Bros.' successor complained about a certain hotel's advertising a Monopoly tournament as such, so they changed the name of it to a Monotony tournament. It's bizarre because it's great publicity for Monopoly and requires the purchase of their actual product to play the tournament, which means I also think legally they'd lose based on extinction of trademark claim with the purchase, but it just shows how silly the lawyers get, basically to justify their jobs.
	5:28pm ccrides: Freddie nailed 'it'..!..hehehe...:)O(:
	5:31pm Droll: Irwin, Enforcing copyright of digital files in the 21st century is technically impossible -- I referred to it last week as "whack-a-mole". I treat this a social problem where stealing from musicians is considered something we're supposed to argue over. Any theory used to defend stealing from musicians can be also applied to grocers, but nobody here is saying "I love food, and I'm not going to pay for it!" I am trying to remind people of the hypocrisy of singling out musicians.
	5:33pm glenn: i gotta agree with droll. it's pretty much wage theft.
	5:33pm Robert: The person who's done the most "demonstration" I know of for the laissez faire side in intellectual property is Craig Baldwin. Not sure he's the best at arguing his case, but it's fun anyway.
	5:33pm ccrides: You can't copyright 'evolution'..!..think about 'it'...'it's deep!!!!...LOL...:)O(:..
	5:33pm Irwin: Stealing food from a neighborhood grocery is morally equivalent to creating a mashup? OK, Droll. You win.
	5:34pm Eric: Food is a physical object with a finite quantity, music is not any more. If you don't want anyone to get your music for free then don't record it.
	5:34pm P-90: Droll: With all due respect, groceries are fungible commodities that are bought/sold in a different kind of economy than digital files. It's apples & oranges, or apples & mp3's
	5:34pm fleep: Like there's no pirate movies? Like YouTube isn't awash with pirate TV episodes, some of them flipped and audio altered to avoid copyright? Pirated books? It's all media. Somewhere along the line the Internet convinced us media is free.
	👻 5:35pm rrg: Jane Siberry got more than a little flaky later on, but...never mind. I really do like her stuff, especially this earlier stuff. I should play it more. We all should.
	5:35pm Jack: Dude, when I was really poor I stole food too. I'm not singling out anybody. I used to steal toilet paper from my employer, a big multi-national company. And yet, unsurprisingly, I am able to sleep easily every night. I hope that doesn't disturb you too much.
	5:36pm Robert: I admit that the revenue of creators of non-rivalrous goods that can easily be copied has been reduced by unauthorized copying, but that doesn't mean I'm against if in all cases.
	5:36pm ccrides: Seems like I heard something about...mmmm...anything floating around in the 'air' was fair game and up there for the grabbing...for any'one' who could grasp 'it'???...hahaha...:)O(:..
	5:36pm P-90: @Robert: See also Lawrence Lessig's extensive explorations of the nature and value of "intellectual commons."
	5:37pm Jack: Droll, read up about Emmett Grogan and the Diggers.
	5:37pm Irwin: To Droll, Jack, fleep, etc: I'm not condoning theft. I'm saying that mashups made by hobbyists are NOT theft. The originals still exist, no one is taking them away from their lawful owners.
	5:37pm fred: @Mary: many thanks for the link. I don't have a phone, so I now have to wait a few days for approval, but I should get that record eventually, I hope
	5:40pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: ...there was also a Musician's Advocate interviewed some months ago on Michael Shelley's about Corporations trying to weasel out of paying Performance Rights or such. The argument was made that people always say they're helping the Artist by promoting them - & nobody ever wants to pay!...but it doesn't help if I know no specifics here...There, Jason countered that if applied to a non-commercial station like FMU, it'd be stuck playing only stuff on the FreeMusicArchive, & should be aimed @ the Big Corporations...Does seem to me that it's not FMU - whatever it plays - that wants to cheat artists out of all the filthy luchre it (doesn't) make(s)...
	5:40pm Robert: Yeah, but Lawrence Lessig's not as funny as Craig Baldwin.
	5:40pm Jack: Irwin, Droll is the only one here talking about "theft". He introduced that word and concept into the conversation. Maybe because I'm not a lawyer I don't understand who is being wronged, in his eyes.
	5:42pm P-90: @Jack: me neither, because he hasn't yet made it clear who"s being wronged
	5:43pm ccrides: Mmmm...kinda reminds me of Emmit Rhoades!!!...:)O(:..
	👻 5:44pm rrg: Who always reminded me of...I forget now.
	5:45pm Droll: P-90 and Jack, If instead of electronic files you went into a record store and walked out the door with a bunch of CDs without paying for them, are you still unsure who, if anyone, has been "wronged"?
	5:45pm Jack: "Poor" Clive Davis? I'm cutting into his personal profits, hurting him? because I download an WFMU archive that plays Aretha Franklin, and I burn it to CD and give (or sell) it to a friend. Poor poor Mr. Davis, no coke tonight Clive.
	5:46pm ccrides: rrg...Paulie, of course!!!...:)O(:..
	👻 5:46pm rrg: Of course!
	5:47pm Jack: Droll, I told you upthread I used to do that, steal records and CD's. Usually from big record chains. Do you know the concept "inventory shrinkage"?
	5:48pm fred: Yeah, it's theft. When Universal doesn't have a clue about more than 50% of what they have. Really. They will only check it if someone uses it, just in case it's in their portfolio. The reason I know this is a sliver of hope: they want to know what they have, and they're growing tired of litigation as a business model
	5:49pm Jack: and P-90. I don't just single out Clive Davis; sometimes I single out Paul McCartney.
	5:49pm bobdoesthings: it also seems to me the industry is shifting to a "you don't own anything.. pay this subscription and stream! store it on OUR cloud and we'll hold it for you" business model.. what's the difference of people listening to full albums on youtube?
	5:50pm ccrides: Great show Irwin...Cheerz bud!!!...:)O(:..
	5:50pm Laura L: Wonder if "transformative" use would come into play if there were a court case regarding mash-ups. It is relevant to physical art made by people like Jeff Koons...
	5:50pm P-90: @ Jack; I betcha Clive understands exactly why you might download a song from WFMU's non-profit archive for personal use (selling it's a different case). I don't think Clive would think it fair to associate him specifically and gratuitously with "cocaine and teenage hookers" in a casual chat about the record-industry profiting from musicians' work.
	5:51pm Robert: I'll give an example from my own practice. Licensing terms for software are so ridiculous, nobody expects people to pay att'n to them. So, for instance, when a friend had a computer game, and was playing it with me every time he played it, I installed it on my computer, although it was also on his. We never had 2 games of it going at the same time, so I thought it was keeping in the spirit of the copyright. Once he told me he was going to play his copy solo at home, I deleted my copy (after I finished my own solo game).
	5:52pm Irwin: Jerry Goodman of Mahavishnu on electric violin.
	5:54pm Robert: My friend thought I was silly to delete my copy, but my friend is a writer who sells some of what he writes and does not appreciate being pirated for $. OTOH, he has used some graphics of others without authoriz'n in his writings that he sells, so a bit of hypocrisy there, especially since he did seek & get authoriz'n from SOME of his sources.
	5:55pm fleep: Balloon dogs are in the public domain, I think.
	5:55pm fred: Often with small-scale software you can contact the copyright owner and find a deal, beer being an acceptable currency. That model doesn't scale though, and if Apple gets in the way you're screwed, but in a holy way
	5:55pm listener102365: Robert: You could hide the entire text of Mein Kampf within an EULA and nobody would be the wiser.
	5:56pm P-90: @Robert: That raises an key point about "digital age ethics": that showing that kind of respect for "ownership" of digital creations is inescapably a voluntary act. It's unregulatable and unenforcable by the State.
	5:56pm Jack: my point was (maybe poorly expressed) was that the suits in the industry get a disproportionate share of the profits of an artists work, and I don't mind at all ripping them off. The artists have already been ripped off by the record company weasels. And if all the many many artists that Mr. Clive Davis produced were as wealthy as he is, I wouldn't point to him AS AN EXAMPLE. Robert, don't get me started about software. I had my first computer in 1980 and I have NEVER bought software. Droll, I'm proud of that! Poor poor Mr. Bill Gates.
	👻 5:56pm rrg: A fine program. Thanks, Mr. Host, and catch you later, Accu-Playlist chums.
	5:56pm Irwin: Flock dedicated to Clay Pigeon, fan of 1st-gen rock bands that featured horn sections.
	👻 5:57pm rrg: Perhaps the new CMS being developed won't use the term "Accu-Playlist". That will be fine with me.
	5:57pm Jack: I saw the Flock with The Who, 1970.
	5:57pm bobdoesthings: thanks irwin.
	5:58pm Sem Chumbo: Thanks for the conversation about mash-ups, thoughtful insights. Much appreciated, all. Thanks for hosting, Irwin.
	5:58pm P-90: Too few bands these days with horn sections. THANKS DJ Irwin!
	5:58pm Robert: A lot of the problem is coordination. It can be insuperable to track down the copyright holders for a lot of old stuff to get authoriz'n, so you take a guess -- usually a good one -- that they wouldn't mind.
	6:00pm Jack: P-90! Read Clive Davis biography. Might change your mind!
	6:00pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: I do believe it's true that the Music is now owned by a bunch of Businessmen & Lawyers who don't know a thing about Artists or Music, the Audience, or Technology - whereas in the years of the Cultural Revolution - we were an expanding Market & they were in a rush to pander to us - now we are nothing...It's not just Music - but also oil riggs inthe Gulf, recalled cars that are crap, our Electoral Process & our Democracy...ho hum...
	6:01pm Jack: Hey Rabbitt! mind yer posting, Ken's counting your comments!
	6:03pm Robert: Jack, is Ken quota-minded?
	6:06pm Jack: Robert, Ken had an issue with RRN63 posting too much.
	6:08pm Robert: He knocked me off this AM. I do tend to go off on a tangent & go on & on.
	6:10pm Robert: In that case I was going on & on about naming the performance space, and then I started going on about the general practice of naming things for past things.
	6:12pm Robert: I hadn't realized the graphic he put up was from a vote taken by the actual attendees at the official inaugur'n of the room. I can imagine he was sick of the issue by this AM's program.
	6:12pm Jack: Yeah, you gotta watch that. I think someone bitched about RRN63, which is why Ken reacted. But I've seen other posters comment A LOT more. Usually the Rabbit has something interesting to say. Just try not to offend anyone, especially the DJ.
	6:13pm Jack: And don't post comments in a row. Space them out, if you can.
	6:15pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63: I didn't start the fire, Billy Joel fans ! ...But I apologize if contributing to bum-rushing Irwin's comments here: It's totally legit for the DJ to define what is On-Topic or Off.
	6:19pm Robert: Oh, darn...I'm a genius at offending people unintentionally and/or in a different spirit from how it's taken. Also, I'm critical. I don't consider it "hating".
	6:20pm Robert: Irwin has said he doesn't even pay att'n to the comments, nor does he care if the people commenting are even listening. Today he obviously paid att'n to the comments.
	6:21pm Jack: I was just kidding you, man. I never wrote you back after you were kind enough to let me know what had happened to you, in re: Ken and comments. But - as you've seen - I'm not the only one to notice your absence, and a lot of people have commented that they're glad you're back. You really do add to a conversation; you make good comments, sometimes funny. You have a unique viewpoint that I (and others obviously) like. So again, welcome back. Just don't rile Ken up.
	6:23pm Jack: Robert, I was surprised that Irwin was responding to comments today, I love that man. Plus Droll was pushing some of Irwin's buttons, from last week even.
	6:25pm Jack: Critical is good, in my book. Means you think for yourself, usually.
	6:25pm Robert: But there have been times I've been mean to DJs in the comments. One time Scott Williams made himself too easy a target with his daughter not behaving well on-air. It was just too juicy to not ha-ha at that easy setup, even though I feel sympathy for people who take their children to public spaces (never know when you might have no reasonable choice) and then the kid's got them over a barrel by the leverage provided by acting up. Another time I made fun of an unflattering photo Terre put up of a band. She didn't appreciate that, but then I noticed she got someone else to take band pictures subsequently. So I feel my criticism was constructive.
	6:29pm Jack: Well, tread carefully my friend. I personally don't mind offending other listeners or commenters, particularly if they're assholes, but NEVER piss off the DJ to whose show you're listening to. They do have the power to remove you from the board.
	6:33pm Robert: They have the power, but I treat them as equals in the comments. I took Ken's deletion of my comments this AM as a gag in itself, esp. since it was predicted by another commenter. I don't mind being the butt of a gag.
	6:36pm Robert: What I would NOT do is criticize a DJ in ANOTHER DJ's comment thread. I think it's manlier to do it in their own presence.

Irwin Chusid: Playlist from July 16, 2014

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